Homosexuality and Race

[H.B.]

I was watching the documentary on PBS the other day and a gay female teenager said that being prejudiced against gays is the same thing as being prejudice against someone because of his or her race.

I started thinking about this and it seemed to make alot of sense. It seems like the most common reasons for people to be against gay marriage are that "it is wrong" or "I don't want fags running around this country". I have also talked to some who think that gays shouldn't even exist. Now these sentiments were shared with many anti-race sentiments from the 60s and 70s. For exmaple with segregation and the idea of keeping black away from whites.

I am not sure if I was very clear, but I just wanted to see what you guys thought about it, what your take on this is.

Remember this is not a pro or anti gay marriage thread. this is a thread discussing the similarities between anti-gay and anti-race sentiments (if there are any).

 

[S O F I]

Marriage

I've said it before, gays and lesbians are facing similar problems that Blacks were facing 50 years ago. It may not be to the same extent, but still.

 

[HitEmUp21]

Marriage

They are both prejudice, sure. And it may also be a case of social construction. We need to look at the history of this idea of 'homosexuality', it just came up a few hundred years ago in a sense. Before that, there were "homosexual acts" committed by people, sure they were sinning and all that, but it wasn't the central aspect of their personality or self. Now, a "regular" person doesn't just committ homosexual acts, even if this heterosexual person has a homosexual thought, they are worrying about if they are gay or not, as if it is an all-or-nothing process. And then if you do committ these acts or have these thoughts, you are suddenly a 'homosexual' and that becomes the salient part of your personality.

We have categorized sex and sexual habits into possibly being the most, or second-most important aspect of ourselves. Some people who identify as homosexual may even put it before their gender or race in defining their identity.

Think of this: if the sin of 'pride' suddenly came into the limelight, would we start categorizing people into groups of either proud or humble, and then exhibiting prejudice against those who are 'proud'? History tells me that if something as absurd as that were to happen, 'we' would.

So it is self-evident that prejudice is the common feature of both racism and homosexuality, and they both deal with power relations. Obviously race is the more important, possibly due to the sheer amount of non-white people while there aren't many 'homosexuals' to be 'colonised' in the same way. They are different, but the self-evident thing in both is certainly prejudice.

 

[Khaled]

Marriage

i don't think they are the same at all.
the race thing argument that was used is the belief that some race is superior to the other, and it's mainly because there are genetic visible differences (that's how it started anyway), and people often confuse physical differencves with better or worse.

On the other hand, homophobia is completely different because it comes from a sense of disgust or fear. The basic difference imo is better seen in the fact that parent find it hard to accept their children being gay. This cannot be applied to black people .

Even though Racism and homophobia are social phenomena, the fact of being black is not, although being gay is....
don't know if it makes any sense...

 

[Amara]

Marriage

i don't think they are the same at all.
the race thing argument that was used is the belief that some race is superior to the other, and it's mainly because there are genetic visible differences (that's how it started anyway), and people often confuse physical differencves with better or worse.

On the other hand, homophobia is completely different because it comes from a sense of disgust or fear.

Isnt that saying the same thing in who different ways. Why do people feel superior, might it not be linked to a sense of disgust, fear or misunderstanding of another race? When people hold disgust of homosexuals, might it not generate a sense of superiority in regard to their own sexuality which is deemed better or more "normal" than homosexuality?

 

[HitEmUp21]

Marriage

Isnt that saying the same thing in who different ways. Why do people feel superior, might it not be linked to a sense of disgust, fear or misunderstanding of another race? When people hold disgust of homosexuals, might it not generate a sense of superiority in regard to their own sexuality which is deemed better or more "normal" than homosexuality?

I agree. People who claim that racism and homosexuality are apples and oranges because of the emphases being superiority in one case and moral disgust in the other are forgetting that racism was also at one time the subject of moral outrage. And by default I think that heterosexuals who claim that we are normal are basically stating, without words, the superiority of heterosexuals.

 

[Duke]

Marriage

Isnt that saying the same thing in who different ways. Why do people feel superior, might it not be linked to a sense of disgust, fear or misunderstanding of another race? When people hold disgust of homosexuals, might it not generate a sense of superiority in regard to their own sexuality which is deemed better or more "normal" than homosexuality?

The way people react to it (being black, being gay) is usually the same, thus the problems faced by such minorities are largely similar. Acceptance. That is, of course, a social issue, but the reasons some people hate gays or people from a different "race" are wholly different.

The "haters" hate gays because it's wrong. It shouldn't be like that. It's unnatural. Now here also can supremacy/inferiority issues pop up, but then usually as a reaction on the "unnatural" behaviour.


While most reasons a proper racist can come up with are usually related to supremacy/inferiority of their physical or mental build (I bet a good Klan member would try to claim blacks have smaller brains). But they can't say it's unnatural to be black or asian.


[/2cts]

 

[S O F I]

Marriage

The way people react to it (being black, being gay) is usually the same, thus the problems faced by such minorities are largely similar. Acceptance. That is, of course, a social issue, but the reasons some people hate gays or people from a different "race" are wholly different.

The "haters" hate gays because it's wrong. It shouldn't be like that. It's unnatural. Now here also can supremacy/inferiority issues pop up, but then usually as a reaction on the "unnatural" behaviour.


While most reasons a proper racist can come up with are usually related to supremacy/inferiority of their physical or mental build (I bet a good Klan member would try to claim blacks have smaller brains). But they can't say it's unnatural to be black or asian.


[/2cts]

Don't you know that a 100 years ago, there were White people in the US that saw Blacks as being "wrong", as being "unnatural" and didn't even recognize them as being human. They truly believed it. Now, you believe that being homosexual is wrong and unnatural, but I bet five dollars that you can't even define clearly what is natural and what is not. A hundred years from now, people will laugh at those that believe homosexuality is wrong and unnatural.

 

[H.B.]

Marriage

The basic difference imo is better seen in the fact that parent find it hard to accept their children being gay. This cannot be applied to black people .

I disagree, this fear can be applied to race. Think about a white family whose daughter decides to marry a black man, or a black family whose son wants ot marry a white woman. The fears are still there, their parents might find it hard to accept their children being in love with a member of the opposite race. (just as parents might fear that their children are in love with a member of the same sex).

 

[absolut_dreII]

It's not the same for the simple matter that race is not a choice. Homosexuality is, period!

 

[H.B.]

Marriage

A hundred years from now, people will laugh at those that believe homosexuality is wrong and unnatural.

I agree completely with that statement. It might even be 25 years from now, maybe less time.

Another interesting thing is that, based on who I have talked to, and who seems to be pro/anti-gay, a large majority of the people who are anti-gay come from the same backgrounds and same areas as those who were racists in the 50s, 60s, and 70s (namely the south). And those that are for gay rights were on the other side of the spectrum during the civil rights movement.

I think that if one were to go back in time, into the 50s-70s, and place those are anti-gay now, in that time period, a good majority of them would be pro-segregation. (This would be done such that those people would not have knowledge of future events, the period would be the present to them).

 

[Illuminattile]

At the end of the day, it all boils down to ignorance. Ignorance is the basis of all prejudice.

...a large majority of the people who are anti-gay come from the same backgrounds and same areas as those who were racists in the 50s, 60s, and 70s (namely the south). And those that are for gay rights were on the other side of the spectrum during the civil rights movement.

And why do you think this is? It's not because they're closer to the equator. The obvious answers would be because they're traditionally more religious and less educated than the North.

Why are black Americans more homophobic than white Americans? Religion, education.

 

[two187pac]

one is predetermined, the other is a lifestyle choice . im sure its genetic to an extent but not like race.

 

[Duke]

Marriage

Don't you know that a 100 years ago, there were White people in the US that saw Blacks as being "wrong", as being "unnatural" and didn't even recognize them as being human.

Not recognizing them as humans is different than saying they're unnatural. A homo is "unnatural" because his behaviour goes against nature's guidelines.

They truly believed it. Now, you believe that being homosexual is wrong and unnatural, but I bet five dollars that you can't even define clearly what is natural and what is not.

No, i don't believe that homosexuality is wrong, i'm reasoning from their perspective. And "unnatural" is of course a very broad term, in this case I meant it literally, as in, not conforming with nature.

A hundred years from now, people will laugh at those that believe homosexuality is wrong and unnatural.

Probably.

 

[Khaled]

Marriage

I agree. People who claim that racism and homosexuality are apples and oranges because of the emphases being superiority in one case and moral disgust in the other are forgetting that racism was also at one time the subject of moral outrage. And by default I think that heterosexuals who claim that we are normal are basically stating, without words, the superiority of heterosexuals.

not talking about moral disgust, just physical. nothing religious or spiritual has anything to do with it. Nor about being right or wrong.
forexample, i don't mind lebians, but i would throw up if i see male gay porn. Although the moral aspect behind both is actually the same.

Isnt that saying the same thing in who different ways. Why do people feel superior, might it not be linked to a sense of disgust, fear or misunderstanding of another race? When people hold disgust of homosexuals, might it not generate a sense of superiority in regard to their own sexuality which is deemed better or more "normal" than homosexuality?

i don't think that feeling superior has anything to do with disgust, fear or misunderstanding. i believe superiority in the racism case sprung from the fact that white europeans were much more advanced "technologically" than Africa, which led to slavery. racism came from here rather than fear.

Don't you know that a 100 years ago, there were White people in the US that saw Blacks as being "wrong", as being "unnatural" and didn't even recognize them as being human. They truly believed it. Now, you believe that being homosexual is wrong and unnatural, but I bet five dollars that you can't even define clearly what is natural and what is not. A hundred years from now, people will laugh at those that believe homosexuality is wrong and unnatural

what i said in my first post was that racism and homophobia are similar in the fact that they are both a social aspect (a persecuted minority). But that doesn't mean that "being gay now is the same as being black 100 years ago" since being black (a race) isn't the same as being gay (a social thing).

A hundred years from now, people will laugh at those that believe homosexuality is wrong and unnatural

maybe, but also in anciant greece, homosexuality and pedophilia were also very common and really natural. Does that mean that persecuting pedophiles is the same as racism???

 

[Illuminattile]

one is predetermined, the other is a lifestyle choice . im sure its genetic to an extent but not like race.

The only choice is whether to be 'in' or 'out'.

People need to stop making threads about homosexuality, I always come across as gay. I'm not gay. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

 

[Illuminattile]

Renamed the thread, since it's not really about marriage.

I've said it before, gays and lesbians are facing similar problems that Blacks were facing 50 years ago. It may not be to the same extent, but still.

I agree. They're also facing the same problems the Jews faced in Nazi Germany.

i don't think they are the same at all.
the race thing argument that was used is the belief that some race is superior to the other, and it's mainly because there are genetic visible differences (that's how it started anyway), and people often confuse physical differencves with better or worse.

On the other hand, homophobia is completely different because it comes from a sense of disgust or fear.

There's fear in racism as well. If you look at the way gay people were painted as sexual deviants, as rapists and pedophiles, black people and Jews were painted in the same ways.

And it's not a case of being 'disgusted' by the act of homosexual sex, because how many people actually have to see that? Homophobic or not, gay sex isn't particularly appealing to heterosexuals (except some females). That said, people objected to interracial relationships in the same way they object to same-sex relationships.

The basic difference imo is better seen in the fact that parent find it hard to accept their children being gay. This cannot be applied to black people .

I see your point about homosexuality being an individual thing, and that makes it even harder in a way. Black children can look to their parents for support, gay children often can't.

We need to look at the history of this idea of 'homosexuality', it just came up a few hundred years ago in a sense. Before that, there were "homosexual acts" committed by people, sure they were sinning and all that, but it wasn't the central aspect of their personality or self. Now, a "regular" person doesn't just committ homosexual acts, even if this heterosexual person has a homosexual thought, they are worrying about if they are gay or not, as if it is an all-or-nothing process. And then if you do committ these acts or have these thoughts, you are suddenly a 'homosexual' and that becomes the salient part of your personality.

That's not true. You're implying that people weren't gay, they just had gay sex. There are massive bodies of art - paintings, poems, stories - which depict homosexual relationships. There's historical evidence of people being persecuted for forming relationships with people of the same sex.

It might be the case, as some psychologists have argued, that our natural state is bisexuality and that hetero- and homosexuality are restraints created by society. To argue that homosexuality is a relatively new 'creation' is ignorant, though.

Your point about pride doesn't really make sense either, as pride is something we can control. It's a character trait which can be changed. Homosexuality is not.

 

[H.B.]

It's not the same for the simple matter that race is not a choice. Homosexuality is, period!

I don't think that's true. With race, it is easy to realize and acknowledge that it is not a choice, because it is tangible, and easily visible. But, simply because homosexuality is psychological, and therefore not something we can see or touch, does not mean that it isn't inherent.

Also, look at it another way. (I am assuming you are a heterosexual). Are you attracted to both men and women, but choose to have sexual realtions with only women? No, because you choose women because you are attracted to them. you don't choose men because you aren't attracted to men. It is not a choice, your sexual orientation is innate.

If the majority of the people in this world were homosexuals, and said your heterosexuality was a choice, would you agree with them. I think its safe to say that you wouldn't. Simply because you are not attracted to members of the same sex. Just as homosexuals are not attracted to members of the opposite sex.

 

[Khaled]

There's fear in racism as well. If you look at the way gay people were painted as sexual deviants, as rapists and pedophiles, black people and Jews were painted in the same ways.

i replied to this in my earlier post (i guess we both posted at the same time)

I see your point about homosexuality being an individual thing, and that makes it even harder in a way. Black children can look to their parents for support, gay children often can't.

sure, but the whole point of my post is not which is better, just that they are different.

 

[Jokerman]

Race is a choice! Just because you want to be white, keep that shit away from me. It's wrong and I don't want whites running around this country.