Help Me With The Tookie Case...

[Jacob]

You conveniently cut my implied conclusion out the quote, so let me restate it:

Tookie's done nothing worthy of the Nobel Peace Prize, his actions directly lead to the destruction of countless lives, and people who use his Nobel nomination to glorify the man aren't thinking straight.

Does that mean he should have been a victim of institutionalized murder? Not necessarily; however, I wasn't implying that it does.

 

[Freedom Froggy]

jacob... tookie did nothing but give a name to something that was already there.. you CANNOT blame him for the crime crips and bloods are committing...

you CAN blame him and convict him for what he did when he was a free man.. which is still questionable at this point and time 26yrs later

 

[Jacob]

I'm obviously not doing a good job of communicating my thoughts.

I'm against the death penalty for philosophical reasons, so I don't agree with sentencing the man to death.

As a sociologist, I don't put the blame on Tookie. His involvement in the early co-founding of the Crips (one of the most notorious organized crime rings in American history) is undeniable; but the fact is, it was bound happen given the socioeconomic situation of the times.

My point is: he doesn't deserve a Nobel Peace Prize, and his mere nomination is an insult to (most of) the previous winners.

If people want to argue that he shouldn't have been executed, great -- I'm inclined to agree (as I said, I disagree with the death penalty on philosophical grounds). If people want to use his Nobel Peace Prize nomination to justify that belief, then (having had the honor of working with men such as Desmond Tutu on community service projects) I'm offended, and I feel that the man's nomination is an insult to the most prestigious award in the world.

 

[Freedom Froggy]

i understand jacob. i came into the thread late...whether he deserved it or not im not sure

my problem with this whole situation and his case is basically that... the state prosecution is blatantly telling us "our prisons do not work... they do not rehabilitate" . They kept saying hes still doing this and hes still doing that.. he wont throw his gang ties down... hes fake bla blah

The question of does prison work and if not how do we fix it. should have been the topic

 

[RFTP]

jacob... tookie did nothing but give a name to something that was already there.. you CANNOT blame him for the crime crips and bloods are committing...

You mean that the bloods were already there? Sorry but that's bullshit. Sure, the drugselling and fighting and stuff was there but "his" whole idea of gang stepped it up to another level. He is responsible for the creation he set here, of course he shouldn't be found guilty of what a crip/blood member is doing right now as it was their choice etc, but this whole idea of gang and stuff came from him and Washington, his fella.

 

[ARon]

^So he brought a name to something already there like Froggy said. Like somone brought a name to a basketball team. He didn't create selling drugs, shooting people, or any of that, he should not be held responsible for any of that, any who thinks that is an idiot.

 

[Freedom Froggy]

You mean that the bloods were already there? Sorry but that's bullshit. Sure, the drugselling and fighting and stuff was there but "his" whole idea of gang stepped it up to another level. He is responsible for the creation he set here, of course he shouldn't be found guilty of what a crip/blood member is doing right now as it was their choice etc, but this whole idea of gang and stuff came from him and Washington, his fella.

so your telling me there where no gangs before the crips/bloods... are you SERIOUSLY going to tell me there where no gangs before crips and bloods

 

[Jokerman]

He was responsible for Traz and all the killing that ensued.

 

[Freedom Froggy]

uncle traz was tookies biological father

 

[RFTP]

^So he brought a name to something already there like Froggy said. Like somone brought a name to a basketball team. He didn't create selling drugs, shooting people, or any of that, he should not be held responsible for any of that, any who thinks that is an idiot.

Things weren't already there. Rival-shootings didn't exist. He didn't create selling drugs of course but he organized one of the largest gang to do so. therefore he should be held responsible for it. He created crips, bloods were created as a rival, so without crips= no blood. This doesn't mean that the killing wouldn't be there but it would be in minimum numbers. If you read about him you'll see that the first "victim" to fall from a gun was a crip member BY a blood. Before that it was just fightings and stuff. Noone has implied that he created the thoughts of this and that, but he DID create an "organization" that delt with it in alot larger number then before.

 

[RFTP]

so your telling me there where no gangs before the crips/bloods... are you SERIOUSLY going to tell me there where no gangs before crips and bloods

Depends on your definition of gang. Of course people still hung around with eatch other and had groups where only they knew and stuff. But I'm sure these groups formed themselves more as friends who lived nearby eatch-other and protect eatchother. but I bet they didn't have gangsigns and if you'd do a walk infront of them they wouldn't kill you cause you're flaggin or cause you wear red/blue or cause you're showing of signs etc. These things WEREN'T there, they just werent. But I'm sure there were groups though, it can also be called gang of course but to me it's different.

 

[Freedom Froggy]

Depends on your definition of gang. Of course people still hung around with eatch other and had groups where only they knew and stuff. But I'm sure these groups formed themselves more as friends who lived nearby eatch-other and protect eatchother. but I bet they didn't have gangsigns and if you'd do a walk infront of them they wouldn't kill you cause you're flaggin or cause you wear red/blue or cause you're showing of signs etc. These things WEREN'T there, they just werent. But I'm sure there were groups though, it can also be called gang of course but to me it's different.

how can it be different when during the cowboy days they had outlaw gangs with guys my age and younger... the murder rate was higher and alot of groups wore colored sashes (or rags) to be identified with a certain group

explain please

 

[RFTP]

how can it be different when during the cowboy days they had outlaw gangs with guys my age and younger... the murder rate was higher and alot of groups wore colored sashes (or rags) to be identified with a certain group

explain please

I thought we were talking about the ghettos prior to the crips? you chose a timeframe when things was fucked up and use that as an argument to what? I DIDN'T say that Tookie created the phrase "gang". Thing is, since the crips/bloods things are worse then it could've been (in the ghetto that is and the surroundings). This is where Tookie and his friend washington comes in to the picture. He created an organisation, a stupid one with no purpose at all! Should tookie be held for what a cripmemember does? Of course not but he should be looked at the creation he has created and be held responsible for that.

 

[Freedom Froggy]

I thought we were talking about the ghettos prior to the crips? you chose a timeframe when things was fucked up and use that as an argument to what? I DIDN'T say that Tookie created the phrase "gang". Thing is, since the crips/bloods things are worse then it could've been (in the ghetto that is and the surroundings). This is where Tookie and his friend washington comes in to the picture. He created an organisation, a stupid one with no purpose at all! Should tookie be held for what a cripmemember does? Of course not but he should be looked at the creation he has created and be held responsible for that.

look... there have been "gangs" in the "ghetto" b3fore the damn crips and bloods..do some research

the only reason why the crips and bloods get the recognition they do is because the names caught on to other areas and people started using the name... inturn came the killings over colors

the folk/gds or whatever there original name was, was around a good 20 yrs before the crips showed up.. in chicago

there where gangs and gang leaders before tookie and there have been gangs since

like i said.. all he did was give name to something that was already there

 

[RFTP]

look... there have been "gangs" in the "ghetto" b3fore the damn crips and bloods..do some research

the only reason why the crips and bloods get the recognition they do is because the names caught on to other areas and people started using the name... inturn came the killings over colors

the folk/gds or whatever there original name was, was around a good 20 yrs before the crips showed up.. in chicago

there where gangs and gang leaders before tookie and there have been gangs since

like i said.. all he did was give name to something that was already there

Again, I didn't say there wasn't gangs in the ghettos before. But it was different. neither gang had this power. He created something more powerful then a regular gang.

If you look at it, the ghettos in California are different to other ghettos cause it's all about GANG there, something that's not as common in other ghettos. And they have this saying of LA beeing the land of gangs, surprisingly that's where Tookie is from, so him just "giving name to something that was already there" wouldn't be complete true. he stepped up the gear and created something alot more vicious then any gang at the time. A creation noone can stop right now.

 

[ARon]

Are the Founding Fathers in the US then responsible for every death that occurs here, or related to the US?

 

[Freedom Froggy]

Again, I didn't say there wasn't gangs in the ghettos before. But it was different. neither gang had this power. He created something more powerful then a regular gang.

If you look at it, the ghettos in California are different to other ghettos cause it's all about GANG there, something that's not as common in other ghettos. And they have this saying of LA beeing the land of gangs, surprisingly that's where Tookie is from, so him just "giving name to something that was already there" wouldn't be complete true. he stepped up the gear and created something alot more vicious then any gang at the time. A creation noone can stop right now.

california "ghettos" are no different than anyone elses ghettos.. what you fail to understand is that.. gangs have been fighting before the crips/bloods ever did

when you have a county as big as los angeles county in which 10mill plus live there... and the gangs formed under 2 dominant names... of course its going to seem different from other places. fact still remains. the gang members and the crime was already there.. people where still being killed but the murders didnt get recognition till they labled them selves with names.. then it was called the "gang epidemic"

tookie is not from la.. he was from louisiana

 

[RFTP]

california "ghettos" are no different than anyone elses ghettos.. what you fail to understand is that.. gangs have been fighting before the crips/bloods ever did

But they are different in that sense that CA ghettos have more gangs then other ghettos. There are gangs all over the US but you can notice that they started the gang-thing on a explosive matter only after the crips and bloods. I also understand that there were gangs fighting before, but you missed my point. The whole gang-issue right now has escalated, it did ever since tookie and washington decided to establish that kind of "movement".

when you have a county as big as los angeles county in which 10mill plus live there... and the gangs formed under 2 dominant names... of course its going to seem different from other places. fact still remains. the gang members and the crime was already there.. people where still being killed but the murders didnt get recognition till they labled them selves with names.. then it was called the "gang epidemic"

Maybe so, but crips/blood is the largest gang, they deal with things in larg numbers.

 

[Jokerman]

Are the Founding Fathers in the US then responsible for every death that occurs here, or related to the US?

Yes, of course. And someone should bring them in. There must be quite a reward...