Anti-Muslim bias 'spreads' in EU

[H.E. Pennypacker]

Umar took over the Caliphate of Islam. ANd he was told at his 'inauguration' that he would have his head cut off if he ruled in a way other than the Prophet Mohammed.

Who would say something like that to the third most important man in Islam (Umar) and why? Your words are not clear, but it is almost as if you're saying Umar would do something contrary to the Prophet (peace be upon him).

What Bin laden is doing is illegitimate in Islam.

Have you taken the time to listen to Ibn Laaden's audio interviews and read his words? You don't even know where's he's coming from. From his perspective, he didn't start anything. It was all self-defense. In fact, all this started while he was still a child, when Israel and Palestine began having problems. I don't know a lot about history, but the USA started helping Israel from its early beginnings. Therefore, it would be a defensive war because Israel started it all, at least from Ibn Laaden's perspective. Your talk of offensive war is irrelevant to his actions.

Not has no kind of state authority declared Jihad,

Considering there is no true/proper form of Islaamic state today, there was nothing he could have done in terms of approaching a Khilaafah.

Bin laden has justified everything from the direct sources of Islam

From what I know, and it is little, everything's fine as long as it is in the defense of the Ummah.

So Bin laden is taking the totality of all events that have happened and interpreting in a way which fits his agenda.

There is no agenda. He went from a millionare to a poor man living in a cave. He has absolutely no worldy/financial gain from what he does. He's hunted by many nations, and is made fun of on a daily basis. I can't believe anyone would say that he has ulterior motives. If anything, he may have misunderstood Islaam, but he's certainly sincere in whatever he believes.

i'd reccomend Hamza Yusuf an American convert to Islam

Who cares about Hamza Yusuf. I would not point to him as a reliable source at all, but then again, everyone has their own source. I would post a link to a website that makes fun of Hamza Yusuf all the time (not using humor, but tries to "refute" him..when was the last time I used this word..."refute"?..wow), but I don't think its appropriate here. Its funny at times though.

 

[Flipmo]

Don't really notice it here. We have a pretty big arabic community here and ppl most of the time treat each other with respect, but there are always a bunch of ignorant mother fuckers.

 

[not really ken]

Who would say something like that to the third most important man in Islam (Umar) and why? Your words are not clear, but it is almost as if you're saying Umar would do something contrary to the Prophet (peace be upon him).

Not to be patronising. But this kind of stuff is basic knowledge in Islam. When Umar (RA)took over the khilafat. He addressed the people and asked them whether they were satisfied with his appointment .One man stood up and said"Umar, we have no problems with you being the Ameer, but IF you go contrary to the sunnah, then we will cut your head off". Umar agreed to these conditions (RA).

Have you taken the time to listen to Ibn Laaden's audio interviews and read his words? You don't even know where's he's coming from. From his perspective, he didn't start anything. It was all self-defense. In fact, all this started while he was still a child, when Israel and Palestine began having problems. I don't know a lot about history, but the USA started helping Israel from its early beginnings. Therefore, it would be a defensive war because Israel started it all, at least from Ibn Laaden's perspective. Your talk of offensive war is irrelevant to his actions.

You twice point out that from Bin Ladens perspective it is a legit war. That was my point. You can look at it from different perspectives. ANd even if Bin Laden feels that this is a defensive war. How do you exaplin 9/11. Civilians and buildings cannot be targeted in any Jihad. Also, fire is outlawed by shariahas a weapon of war or punishment. Even if Bin laden has a point. He has trangressed many of the laws of shariah with 9/11. ANd if the sahaba had done this (gone against shariah) they were threatened with having there heads cut off. A condition to which all the kaliphate agreed.

Considering there is no true/proper form of Islaamic state today, there was nothing he could have done in terms of approaching a Khilaafah.

There is no vigilantaism in Islam.

From what I know, and it is little, everything's fine as long as it is in the defense of the Ummah.

I have listened to Bin Laden speeches. I know people in my community who consider Bin Laden a sheikh. The defense of the ummah was not in the World Trade Center on 9/11. Many of the fantics even celebrated on 9/11. (Im not talking of the t.v pics from Palestine). Im refer to the average muslim in the street across the world. SHariah outlaws celebration at your enemies misfortune. The justification that Bin laden uses for his actions is a verse in the Quran. Which is so taken out of context its not even funny. I'm probably wrong but i think its chapter Mohammed verse 8. something like strike fear into the hearts..... . sorry i cant remeber but Bin laden uses this as a justification. As to say that we have to strike fear into their hearts. And he is breaking shariah laws in order to do this. I know which jutification he uses as well to be allowed to break shariah laws. (for the record, i do know that shariah laws can be broken, but thats with sharee reason)

There is no agenda. He went from a millionare to a poor man living in a cave. He has absolutely no worldy/financial gain from what he does. He's hunted by many nations, and is made fun of on a daily basis. I can't believe anyone would say that he has ulterior motives. If anything, he may have misunderstood Islaam, but he's certainly sincere in whatever he believes.

I don't deny that he is genuine in his heart. The prophet (PBUH) said "make excuses for a brother, always give him the benefit of the doubt " (not in these words).
but i am saying that he is extreme in his deen . the prophet (PBUH) said "do not be extreme in your deen" (not in those words). the extreme means in all senses, from dawah to jihad.

Who cares about Hamza Yusuf. I would not point to him as a reliable source at all, but then again, everyone has their own source. I would post a link to a website that makes fun of Hamza Yusuf all the time (not using humor, but tries to "refute" him..when was the last time I used this word..."refute"?..wow), but I don't think its appropriate here. Its funny at times though.

lol, a website? then it must be true . Have you ever listened to Hamza Yusuf speeches for yourself. And then researched from more than one website about what he is speaking about. That is your duty brother. Give me the website address. If not then please make a thread about his 'deviant' practices. Lets try and clear issues up. If your still not satisfied then so be it. But please post that particualr website. I can't believe that muslims would make fun of other scholars. That is causing division and they will be dealt with. If they have genuine grievances then why don't they voice them. Instead of making fun and ridiculing. which is a trait of iblees.

 

[hussain4891]

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/individual_callers/hamza_yusuf/index.htm

 

[not really ken]

http://www.allaahuakbar.net/individual_callers/hamza_yusuf/index.htm

LMMAO!!!

if this is the site which 'exposes' Hamza Yusuf then some people are fucking stooooooooopid. (BTW penny, im not saying that this is the one that you were referring to). This site is anti-EVERYONE. JUst go check it. Seriously, this is a little childish. Usually im not one for conspiracy theories but this site is defo made by the proverbial 'jews'. There is not one sect of Ilsam that isn't exposed on this site.

even on top of this, the articles which 'expose' Hamza Yusuf have been found to be pathetic. I've read most of them. Why can't people just accept that Hamza Yusuf is a WHITE scholar. He's not the only one.

I don't mean to offend anyone with this post

 

[H.E. Pennypacker]

Not to be patronising. But this kind of stuff is basic knowledge in Islam.

Let me tell you a story. Back in 8th grade, my history teacher (a non-Muslim) told me something about prophets, and I didn't believe it. That day, I went home, and learned it was true. Today, I look back and think of that moment because I learned something very important from that. Forget the number of books you've read or the number of speeches you've attended, never think of yourself as knowledgeable or highly knowledgeable. The teacher not only put me in my place, but also taught me a valuable lesson in life. Thinking you know everything will make you reject wisdom from others.

What you said may be basic knowledge, but like I said, I know very little. What does little mean? To each his own, but everyone who is right in his mind will tell you that he knows very little. From Imaam Al-Bukhari to Abu Bakr As-Sadeeq, they will all tell you they know very little.

Civilians and buildings cannot be targeted in any Jihad.

I am willing to bet that he'd say otherwise. In fact, there's this great article on 9/11 by an Imaam who died not too long ago, and I found it to be very interesting. I would show you the article, but I forgot his name and the title of the article. Basically, the article said that the fact civilians died was not the point of the attack. For example, if you take a cannon and you aim it at a group of people that deserve to die and someone innocent is amongst them, it is not your fault. I am sure Ibn Laaden would tell you that the innocents (kids, women, etc.) were not his aim, but people he believes deserved to die.

I can't put all the words of the article here, but if you'd like to read it, I'll look for it. Let me know if you want it.

which is so taken out of context its not even funny. I'm probably wrong but i think its chapter Mohammed verse 8.

Dude, do you know who takes the Quraan out of context? A lot of people, including many Sufees. I won't point fingers at Sufees, and I know there are a few Sunnah-following members, but there are some that take the Quraan out of context in many ways. Even if Ibn Laaden tried he would not have been able to make more mistakes with the Quraan than they have.

I don't deny that he is genuine in his heart. The prophet (PBUH) said "make excuses for a brother, always give him the benefit of the doubt " (not in these words).

If you still consider him a Muslim, don't "bad-mouth" him. You may point out his mistakes and such, but don't speak ill of him.

Have you ever listened to Hamza Yusuf speeches for yourself.

I have not listened to him, but I've listened to other Sufees. I've taken much of my knowledge from Sufees. I am sure I've read some stuff by Hamza Yusuf.

If not then please make a thread about his 'deviant' practices.

Nah, those days in my life are over. I remember times when I used to spend a lot of time on this kind of stuff.

Give me the website address.

It's a Salafee website. They're all pretty much the same. I feel bad about giving you the link because I don't agree with them on many things, but here it is: spubs.com :: salafipublications.com. I am definitely not a fan of them and I don't associate myself with them. Keep in mind that the website is not about a single group of people. It has something on Sufees, and may not actually mention Hamza Yusuf specifically.

I can't believe that muslims would make fun of other scholars.

To these people, Hamza Yusuf is not a scholar. Same goes for me. I don't consider him a scholar. Its funny everyone who preaches about Islam is nowadays called a scholar. He may be a student, but he's no scholar. There were days you had to know A LOT before you could be known as a scholar.

if this is the site which 'exposes' Hamza Yusuf then some people are fucking stooooooooopid. (BTW penny, im not saying that this is the one that you were referring to). This site is anti-EVERYONE. JUst go check it. Seriously, this is a little childish. Usually im not one for conspiracy theories but this site is defo made by the proverbial 'jews'. There is not one sect of Ilsam that isn't exposed on this site.

I used to go to that website. I wasn't much of a fan. I read some of their stuff, and liked a few articles. You point out that it is anti-everyone. That is not what you should be worried about. It is about the content, not the author or the author's beliefs.

Why can't people just accept that Hamza Yusuf is a WHITE scholar. He's not the only one.

Watchu talking about? These people are not racist. There's a lot of love for scholars, regardless of their skin color. They have a problem with Hamza Yusuf not the fact he's white.

 

[not really ken]

Let me tell you a story. Back in 8th grade, my history teacher (a non-Muslim) told me something about prophets, and I didn't believe it. That day, I went home, and learned it was true. Today, I look back and think of that moment because I learned something very important from that. Forget the number of books you've read or the number of speeches you've attended, never think of yourself as knowledgeable or highly knowledgeable. The teacher not only put me in my place, but also taught me a valuable lesson in life. Thinking you know everything will make you reject wisdom from others.

Hence the not to be patronising disclaimer. Ofcouse, its riyaa and hypocrisy to try and seem intelligent on issues and act like you knowe everything. For what it's worth to you now, I also know very little. I don't even understand the language of the Qu'ran which you probably do. Though I can read it but even that's without tajweed. But wouldn't you yourself agree that the stories of the sahaba should 'SHOULD' be common knowledge amongst the muslims. Look there's no easy way of saying this to another muslim. And I have been faced with 'muslims' who don't even know what the kalimah is 'pledge of alleigiance to islam'. but no mis-understanding, I admit my comment was alittle arrogant. Im sorry

What you said may be basic knowledge, but like I said, I know very little. What does little mean? To each his own, but everyone who is right in his mind will tell you that he knows very little. From Imaam Al-Bukhari to Abu Bakr As-Sadeeq, they will all tell you they know very little.

SubhanAllah that's true. as long as you are constantly learning then there can be no harm in that. Infact the Propet (PBUH) said that you should not push peope in the deen, rather you should let them evolve at their own pace (not in those words)

I am willing to bet that he'd say otherwise. In fact, there's this great article on 9/11 by an Imaam who died not too long ago, and I found it to be very interesting. I would show you the article, but I forgot his name and the title of the article. Basically, the article said that the fact civilians died was not the point of the attack. For example, if you take a cannon and you aim it at a group of people that deserve to die and someone innocent is amongst them, it is not your fault. I am sure Ibn Laaden would tell you that the innocents (kids, women, etc.) were not his aim, but people he believes deserved to die.

I disagree with that. 'Collective guilt' is a notion which is not from Islam. It is collective guilt that the Israelis are using to justify there campaigns in Palestine. One bomb exploding in in Israel means that the Israelis demolish 10 houses in the hope that they find the 'terrorists' house. Ibn Laden knew that never mind civilians, civilian buildings would be attacked. That is not from the shariah. Allah does not love the trangressors, how many times is that emphasised in The QU'ran. Also Allah would never give victory to unjust muslims. If you go against the sunnah then where is the glory in that?
YOu first talk about the notion of collective guilt. Which in essence is legalised indiscrimnate killing. This is not from Islam. Secondly you justify the killing of civillians as a means of futhering your cause. Well I ask you to refer to the conquest of Makkah. The person namely Hind. Had the prophets uncle Hmaza killed and then mutilated his body. at the time the prophet was so angry that he cursed the Mekkans and warned them of an impending bloodbath. However, whent the prophet took over Makkah, he forgave the family of Hind and Abu Sufyan. Why, becasue that is the way of Islam ANd Allah had also revealed a verse in the Quran, telling the muslims not to trangress the limits. And the limit was the personal vendettas are forbidden. That is why there is no vigilantism in Islam. SImilarly the rules of shariah are there which if broken you are a transgressor. Allahs wisdom is better than ours, shariah is his law. we abide by that, not our personal wisdoms.

I can't put all the words of the article here, but if you'd like to read it, I'll look for it. Let me know if you want it.

:thumb: defo

Dude, do you know who takes the Quraan out of context? A lot of people, including many Sufees. I won't point fingers at Sufees, and I know there are a few Sunnah-following members, but there are some that take the Quraan out of context in many ways. Even if Ibn Laaden tried he would not have been able to make more mistakes with the Quraan than they have.

your right in your first point. All groups in Islam have gone astray from the mis-interpretation of the Quran. Secondly I don't know how you bring suffess into issues of Aqeedah. For the record I am not a sufee. I am sunni. Sufism is not an aqeedah. all suffees are sunnis. yes I dabble with there ideas. ANd Imam abu-Hanifah for the record was ba'ith to a sufi sheikh. Also sufees are highly misunderstood. Them meaning of a sufi is "the one who has nothing in his heart except for loe of Allah and his messenger".
Even then, two wrongs don't make a right. JUst because you feel that suffees are taking certain things out of context, how does that justify what Bin-Laden is doing?

If you still consider him a Muslim, don't "bad-mouth" him. You may point out his mistakes and such, but don't speak ill of him.

I don'y understand. If something is wrong then you have to speak about it in order for the non-muslims to get a clear picture. Speak-ill?

I have not listened to him, but I've listened to other Sufees. I've taken much of my knowledge from Sufees. I am sure I've read some stuff by Hamza Yusuf.

Listen to him, i could upload some stuff if you want. I also listne to many other people.

It's a Salafee website. They're all pretty much the same. I feel bad about giving you the link because I don't agree with them on many things, but here it is: spubs.com :: salafipublications.com. I am definitely not a fan of them and I don't associate myself with them. Keep in mind that the website is not about a single group of people. It has something on Sufees, and may not actually mention Hamza Yusuf specifically.

I live couple of streets away from a salfi masajid. ANd a funny story is that Hamza Yusuf came to do a lecture there once . in the late eighties, I was only a kid. But back to the point. I live amogsnt a small Salafi community, my own brother in law used to be a hardcore salafi. I've been there, done that with them. which is the truth of the matter. Im checking that website anyway thoughh

To these people, Hamza Yusuf is not a scholar. Same goes for me. I don't consider him a scholar. Its funny everyone who preaches about Islam is nowadays called a scholar. He may be a student, but he's no scholar. There were days you had to know A LOT before you could be known as a scholar.

Without even listening to him? Hamza Yusuf by definition is a scholar. Now you are speking ill of islamic scholars.
even the prophet (PBUH) was a student. it is well know that the prophet went to a man once for knowledge. and we consider the prophet the greatest teacher. but even the greatest teacher was a student after prophethood. so he is a scholar to some and student to others. but really, atleast give him a chance. im going to upload some stuff

I used to go to that website. I wasn't much of a fan. I read some of their stuff, and liked a few articles. You point out that it is anti-everyone. That is not what you should be worried about. It is about the content, not the author or the author's beliefs.

read the content. Found so many flaws in it.

Watchu talking about? These people are not racist. There's a lot of love for scholars, regardless of their skin color. They have a problem with Hamza Yusuf not the fact he's white.

I have seen some people attribute his 'popularity' ( I wouldnt call it popularity) on his skin colour and his nationality.

 

[Chronic]

yup same here, in the u.s. its like being a jew in nazi germany, ahhhhh now let the hating begin

Good job at trivializing the Jewish struggle in Nazi Germany :thumb:

 

[Kareem]

Good job at trivializing the Jewish struggle in Nazi Germany :thumb:

how the hell is that trivializing?????? swear some of ya'll. like i said unless your muslim an live in america keep comments to yaself you have no clue what its like.

 

[Duke]

how the hell is that trivializing?????? swear some of ya'll. like i said unless your muslim an live in america keep comments to yaself you have no clue what its like.

are you being forced to wear big symbols identifying you as muslims?

are government forces systematically opressing your people, destroying their property and humiliating them in public on a grand scale?

are your people being put on trains to destruction camps??


no, they're not. i'm not a muslim nor do i live in america, but i can say with certainty that it's nowhere near like what the jews had to go through.

damn. you'd almost drown in your self pity.

 

[not really ken]

kareem! I can see the point you were making, although I feel you may have exaggerated with the connection to nazi Germany. I do agree there are some similarities. I have seen friends who have been scoffed and stared and spat (amongst other things) at because the have distingushing muslim features.

However I do also genuinly believe that many Americans are simply ignorant of the true nature of Islam. When a Christian commits an attack of terrorism in America, one of the reasons that their atrocities are not linked to Christianity is becasue the people of Amercia have an understanding of Christianity and they understand that the teachings of Christ are contrary to the type of violence that we may see from Christians in America. However, with islam, rather than being a conspiracy, many people genuinly believe that Islam is a violent way of life. Becasue they genuinly have no knowledge of islam and wrongly assume and recoil into a frame of mind which fears islam.

Lets teach by example, of the true nature of Islam

 

[Chronic]

how the hell is that trivializing?????? swear some of ya'll. like i said unless your muslim an live in america keep comments to yaself you have no clue what its like.

Do you even know what happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany?

The statement "Blacks in the 60's had it as bad as those during slavery" would trivialize the struggle of slaves as well.

If in your comparison you're excluding the death camps etc. you might have a point but why on earth would you use that comparison then?
If you're not excluding them, you're wrong.

 

[Kareem]

Do you even know what happened to the Jews in Nazi Germany?

The statement "Blacks in the 60's had it as bad as those during slavery" would trivialize the struggle of slaves as well.

If in your comparison you're excluding the death camps etc. you might have a point but why on earth would you use that comparison then?
If you're not excluding them, you're wrong.

no im not saying we're being drug off to concentration camps an that type of stuff hitler did, i was saying metaphoricly speaking. There are incidents everyday were muslims are targeted here everyday for the simple fact their muslim! what was isi t just last month a group of muslims returning from Canada from an Islamic confrence were held by u.s. customs for no reason except that they were muslim. My point wasnt to play down what happened in nazi germany at all. I cant even count the numerous times i've been pulled over been through un called for harrassment, just for wearing a kuffi or wearing islamic clothing. maybe i should have re worded myself as to not take away from the holocaust, that wasnt my agenda at all.

 

[Chronic]

It's not that you should've re-worded yourself, it's just a bad choice for comparison.
I know you weren't trying to triviliaze what happened but by using that comparison, you were.
No need to reply to this really, I only went into further discussion because of your initial reply ("how the hell is that trivializing?????? swear some of ya'll. like i said unless your muslim an live in america keep comments to yaself you have no clue what its like.").

 

[Duke]

kareem! I can see the point you were making, although I feel you may have exaggerated with the connection to nazi Germany. I do agree there are some similarities. I have seen friends who have been scoffed and stared and spat (amongst other things) at because the have distingushing muslim features.

However I do also genuinly believe that many Americans are simply ignorant of the true nature of Islam. When a Christian commits an attack of terrorism in America, one of the reasons that their atrocities are not linked to Christianity is becasue the people of Amercia have an understanding of Christianity and they understand that the teachings of Christ are contrary to the type of violence that we may see from Christians in America. However, with islam, rather than being a conspiracy, many people genuinly believe that Islam is a violent way of life. Becasue they genuinly have no knowledge of islam and wrongly assume and recoil into a frame of mind which fears islam.

Lets teach by example, of the true nature of Islam

very true. I see that happening in Europe as well, albeit on a smaller scale. But some people genuinely believe the muslims (as a whole) are on a giant conspiracy tip to destroy the western world.

aaah, ignorance..

 

[feichen]

as a jew, i feel the pain of the muslims right now... i even feel offended by all the shit i hear about muslims in the EU media...

just everybody wants to compare every fucking situation with the shoah and i just wanna say: there is nothing like World War II , so dont compare with that...

nevertheless i feel ya pain ... shiiit the ignoarant fucks in my country dont even know the difference between a jew and a muslim, so i get the same shit on my head everyday.

i think muslims and jews should be friends cuz they have common traditions and values... many of them already are, just the terrorists arent like this: that's why maybe the muslims have to stand up more AGAINST terrorism- however: u dont have to proove urself as a "good"-muslim towards the media...

peace

 

[Sebastian]

as a jew, i feel the pain of the muslims right now... i even feel offended by all the shit i hear about muslims in the EU media...

just everybody wants to compare every fucking situation with the shoah and i just wanna say: there is nothing like World War II , so dont compare with that...

peace

and i feel offended by your exaggeration and generalization

 

[feichen]

and i feel offended by your exaggeration and generalization

scroll through "words of wisdom"
you'd be suprised how much a comparasion with WWII is being made.

 

[makaveli_411]

Wassup feichen, I ain't hating or saying anything but what I can tell you is that if you make your researches you'll realize a lot of stuff has been overly exaggerated during whole WWII.

Do your research on what were Hitler's true cause before starting the massacre and you'll understand what were his true intentions in the beginning. You probably think I'm crazy but don't worry about it I did my researches already. One thing I have to remind you my friend always take a look at both sides of the coin or else it's not worth looking into it at all.

The true reason why Hitler hated jews is because when they came to Germany, the jews started to buy the commerces and were the ones opening banks, investing the money etc. So the whole point was for Hitler to try and calm down the situation over there in the sense that "you're in my country but right now you're doing more than just living in it but you're investing more money than us in our native country and looking for your self interest and not what's best for the people". So there you go it's totally normal that all the Germans started snapping, imagine you being in your country and you decide to let foreigners come into your country to live in it but now you want more than that.

I never said it's bad, you know it's good for the jews but at the same time you have to take a look at the germans and their reaction. Well since then, it really degenerated when Hitler started with the racist comments and then history was written.

BTW the true people and I respect them for never complaining ever because they're true human beings and never bitch about a thing were the Polish people. Just take a look at the whole country, everything was destroyed and nobody ever helped to rebuilt it but themselves and never did you hear them say that they were also the victims in this whole thing.

And you know a thing my friend if it was me and the Polish helped me escape death I would be grateful and therefore if I would have money in large amounts it would be an obligation for me to give back what was rightfully theirs. You see, if cats were all true to themselves the world wouldn't be as crooked as it is now, unfortunately it's all politics but I'll hope to do something about it one day if I could ever re-establish peace in the whole world. I know I'm aiming high in terms of ambition but that's going to be one of my goals for a later future.

Peace

 

[MX Red]

Do your research on what were Hitler's true cause before starting the massacre and you'll understand what were his true intentions in the beginning. You probably think I'm crazy but don't worry about it I did my researches already. One thing I have to remind you my friend always take a look at both sides of the coin or else it's not worth looking into it at all.

The true reason why Hitler hated jews is because when they came to Germany, the jews started to buy the commerces and were the ones opening banks, investing the money etc. So the whole point was for Hitler to try and calm down the situation over there in the sense that "you're in my country but right now you're doing more than just living in it but you're investing more money than us in our native country and looking for your self interest and not what's best for the people". So there you go it's totally normal that all the Germans started snapping, imagine you being in your country and you decide to let foreigners come into your country to live in it but now you want more than that.

I never said it's bad, you know it's good for the jews but at the same time you have to take a look at the germans and their reaction. Well since then, it really degenerated when Hitler started with the racist comments and then history was written.

Germans started snapping? u act as if there wasnt already a strong anti-semitic feeling in Germany. And although what u said about hitler and the wealth the jews were accumilating was an issue, for Hitler that was only a symptom of the problem - not the problem.

Hitler and his followers believed strongly that all jews were communist and wanted a world wide communist revolution and thus thats why they were accumilating the wealth - to Hitler and his social-darwinism this was ideologicaly incorrect, and had to be stamped out. Hitler was always racially abusive to the jews, have u ever read some of his rantings in Mein Kamp? Hitler believed jews and slavs to be sub-human and thus needed to be rooted out of Germany.

And it aint totally normal for people to suddenly hate on such a grand-scale, it was the result of acute social settings - The repayments of world war one and the economic decline of what was before WW1 one of the stongest nations in the world, contributed much to the psychy of the people.

What is worth mentioning is the fact that at the start of his rule and the war Hitler had no intention of killing anyone, only getting them out of his country....the mass killing didnt start untill 1941-1942, and it was doubtfull by the way power was diributed throughout the Reich that Hitler even came up or expressed a need anything like as drastic as the final solution - although he didnt reject it when it started, and supported it full heartedly.
peace
MX!