Anti-Muslim bias 'spreads' in EU

MX Red · Mar 9, 2005

i agree with that^, the media do misrepresent the Muslim community, but they do have a responsibility to report the news - and world news at the min is directed at muslim extreemists. It wasnt much different 40 years ago when communists were persecuted, its an unfair label based on a very few of a much larger community. But most people do have the sense to tell the difference between Al-Qaeda and a law abiding muslim.

When i listen to my friends who speak bad of the muslim community in the way that this thread speaks of i think you are missing the point. Its not muslims per-say that is the problem - its the effects of multiculturalism. Its not the terrorism, its the churches being knocked down or converted into Mosques. Its the fact that multiculturalism has turned into many different cultures living side by side - instead of a tolorant culture that incoporates all the different positions in society. That hasnt happened for many reasons - when forgin people (most notably Eastern Europeans in the UK, not muslims) arrive they are all thrown in together in one community (always the poor communities) they have no chance to mingle with the rest of society and thus the cultures stay apart, plus what poverty does to a community is usually breed criminality which further raises tension - that tension then makes both sides pull back and further isoloate each other. Basically people aint got much of a problem with what people are doing in Syria, Iran or Afganistan its the fact that what happens there is not compatable with what goes on here, and if they want to come to what people see as their country they should fit in with the culture of that country and not reject it. Multiculturalism has in the eyes of many been a failur, the terrorism and stuff doesnt help - but if people think this is only a post 9/11 problem they are wrong and will never resolve it if they keep refering to some abstract problem that doesnt effect people in their daily lives, terrorism doesnt - but living side by side with a culture u dont understand and feel threatened by does. I havent passed my opinion in this post once. Personally i dont give much of a fuck about immigrants, we have unemployment while at the same time we have jobs, if we aint willing to do them but someone else is, all beit from another country good for them let em - my family wouldnt be here otherwise. And another thing this period only usually lasts with first generation immigrants, with second and third generation with schooling and such all the tension seems to dissapear since each learns about the other and tension seems to cool off a little - problem with this then being that it is a constant supply of immigrants and not trips and draps like it used to be (the 70's with afro-carrabiens coming to the UK in mass migration!)
peace
MX!

tupacmansion · Mar 11, 2005

Amara said:

Exactly, thats why I blame the media. Obviously terrorism does exsist but the Media seem to over-emphasise Islam. And as you said they fail to explain the reality. For most educated people it is easy to understand that this is just one small Terrorist group in a huge religion, but unfortunately a large amount of the population are uneducated. In my oppinion the media must be more responsible, rather than contantly showing Islam in a bad light, they must also explain that these terrorists arent real representation of Islam.

Amara · Mar 11, 2005

tupacmansion said:

I know what you are saying but I guess I still have trouble accepting that the media should be held responsible for a lack of understanding that runs deep in society - the media prints what people want to read. Essentially society dictates the media, not necessarily the other way around. Therefore, the selectivity of media is a reflection the lack of knowledge and cultural ignorance the underpins the majority of society. Being a non-Muslim in Australia, how do I know difference between terrorism and jihad? I actively seek to know.

Consider this, immediately after the attacks, news programs were plastering the name Osama bin Laden across screens in the western world. Terrorism resonating from the Middle East was suddenly in our minds. Society does not understand terrorism, what they do understand is the religious nature and cultural differences between regions. Thus the paradigm in which the events were presented reflected the understanding (of lack of) held by society.

Therefore, essentially what is at the heart of the issue, in terms of society, like MX Red suggested is the failure to co-exist in a meaningful and tolerant fashion. This has nothing to do with the causes of terrorism (that is quite different). But in terms of cultural representation, society and as a consequence, the media, leave much to be desired.

Jurhum · Mar 11, 2005

Amara said:

I want to add a point to the above. It's not what the media portrays. It's what the people, Westerners in this case, want to believe. No matter how much anyone does to restore the Islamic picture in the West, it will be impossible to succeed for the people have chosen their perception.

What makes it hard is these self-claimed Muslims committing atrocities in the name of Islam, unfortunately. Their belief in how they interpret Islam has not just hurt Islam, but also, it had put the Muslim population in danger. They simplified the way for those who want to hurt Islam. That's what scares me.

Amara · Mar 11, 2005

^ Yes. Excellent point.

one mc on dj · Mar 11, 2005

Well...I blame politicians..and thats when I blame America and I blame the muslim terrorists that fuck it up for every normal muslim human being. I am talking about the muslims that live next to me I am talking about the friendly muslims that live next to you or near you..

It is only logical the people in western countries kinda started discriminating...They are scared I am scared, you are scared, we are scared!

But hm...the friendly muslims are in a difficult position..because they are not responsible for the actions from others who believe in the same religion as they do..but the people..( note: people are stupid humanity is stupid) are holding them responsible...And it's even worse ya know because at the moment it seems that every terrorist is a muslim but not every muslim is a terrorist and alot of people don't seem to get that because they are blinded by their fear..and sometimes by their governments who try keep their connections alive with other countries...Suddenly every European country is fighting terrorism...It's sad no doubt...

And uhm...I don't think the clothing ban was a direct hit on the muslim community..in France..that is something to just stirr shit up there you go blame the media too...!!

The last couple of months all you heard on the radio and tv was: Bombing in Iraq..terrorists attack soldiers in Iraq..<<Most people have seem to forgot that the weapons of mass destruction have never been discovered...And that ''we're'' now rebuilding a country that ''we'' destroyed for no reason..and now we wanna re build it the way we think is the best...Terrorists attacking soldiers that is some bullshit some ppl are just defending themselves...defending a country a house a family that have been hurt for no reason...Oh saddam is gone that is a good thing...the only good thing...maybe!!.. the country was prolly more stable than it is now with saddam as their leader...

Newayz my point was all we hear is negative things all we get is negative information. All we hear is: america this america that fighting terrorism this fighting it over here over there..making improvements bombs fall here bombs go off there...That doesn't help one bit to bring back the peace...It only causes more trouble and the Anti-Muslim stuff is proof of that...

Oh and check this ad on Streethop out( I dunno if yall can see it too so I made a screenie):

tupacmansion · Mar 11, 2005

one mc on dj said:

I don't think it is logical for people to discriminate on the majority due to the actions of a small minority. That would be like me hating every American just b'coz of George Ws actions.

There is also terrorists of other religions, but religion is emphasised more with Islamic terrorists.

I think this was a bad move by France as it further alienates muslims from the French community.

one mc on dj · Mar 11, 2005

tupacmansion said:

I think it is logical cuz people are just stupid I have already given up hope..Like I think it was even from men in black that I rememberd it..People are stupid and a person can be intelligent..or whatever...

Newayz it didn't only alienate the muslims..it alienated the jews the christians and every other religious person who wears religious clothing from their community...So that sets it straight doesn't it?

tupacmansion · Mar 11, 2005

one mc on dj said:

.

agreed

Yeah, I was jus looking at it from the muslims perspective, but yes it does affect other religions which just shows how stupid this decision was.

one mc on dj · Mar 11, 2005

What I wanna know is how this law works..and last time i really heard something of it was months ago...and than it was only meant for in schools..is that still the case or have they expended it to other public places?

tupacmansion · Mar 11, 2005

The last I heard of this law was a few months ago. I don't think the law has extended to public places otherwise it would blatantly be disregarding human-rights. It would make practicing religion impossible for alot of people. To have this law in schools is bad enough, if they extended it to public places then they may aswell make the country a no-go area for Muslims and Jews.

one mc on dj · Mar 11, 2005

tupacmansion said:

not only for muslims and jews...also for christians who always have uhh a cross thingy around their neck...

I don't think they needed the law but at the same time I think ppl shouldn't care too much...because..School has nothing to do with religion..you go 2 school to learn someting..outside of the school you can believe in whatever you want and live ya life by all the rules you want...But ya know like I said i don't think they needed it..because you can go 2 school and believe in god at the same time...because school has nothing to do with religion lol..and everybody has the right to believe in whatever he or she wants...and you can dress the way you want..

groobz · Mar 11, 2005

You have to expect some backlash. Look at sweeden for an example, they have been flooded with asylum seekers recently, 90% of these have no education, no job and basically are rioting in the streets. What do you want the sweedish to do? A lot of European countries are having this problem as well. Hey at least they get treated better than they do in Asia!

Look at the muslim minority in Thailand, when they decide to riot and blow things up, the thai government sends in the army and slaughters half of them.

imported_MAKaveli_10 · Mar 11, 2005

thats sad. Im muslim and that just is pretty sad. FUCK U Osama. Suck dick.

H.E. Pennypacker · Mar 12, 2005

I am not sure if I should laugh when someone acts in the name of Islam. There's no one, and I repeat no one, who has the authority to act in the name of Islam today. Usaamah Ibn Laaden has never claimed to be anyone special and has never used the Islaamic banner to hide behind any of his actions whether good or bad.

A lot of people put the blame on Ibn Laaden, but that's simply not the case. The problem is misinformation being spread about Islam. As for those that will say that he's spreading misinformation, what about others that spread lies about Islam? I can think of tons and tons of people that have been lying about Islam long before Ibn Laaden was born.

If people only did their own reading, they'd know more about other religions and people. The truth is that the European people are too hungry for hatred. If you look at history, Europeans are some of the most hate-hungry people there are. I lived in Europe long before 9/11, and the problem of racism was there. Believe, as a black person, racism was rampant. It was unbelievable. It wasn't to blacks ony. It was to all non-whites.

I am not going to diss all Europeans because some of them are fair, but they need to wake up and address the disease that is in their lands. I honestly believe my chances of succeeding in the United States as a black person are far greater than my chances in Europe. As far as I am concerned, all non-whites can be taken out of Europe, and Europeans can keep their land to themselves. We'll move somewhere else.

Amara · Mar 12, 2005

H.E. Pennypacker said:

I understand what you are trying to say, and in a way, it was similar to what I was saying. Just one thing though - Osama did use Islam to justify his actions. I gave the quote earlier where he said something like, "it is a war between Islam and the global crusaders." So he very much uses Islam as a front for the pursuits of his group of radicals, whilst attempting to turn this into full blown jihad.

Pointing this out is not to single out Osama as the single most misinterpreter of Islam. Many groups, non-Islamic included, use the pretext of religion or moral good as the basis of their actions, but whose methods undermine the values they supposedly adhere to. I agree, however, that what underpins the situation is societal misunderstanding, intolerance and the perpetual desire to create adversaries.

not really ken · Mar 12, 2005

In Islam there is no such thing as an 'offensive' jihad. A Jihad where you attack without any kind of povocation. The idea of an offensive jihad is borne out of a lust for power and tyranny. Both of which are alien conepts in Islam. As the third declaration of faith in Islam states that 'there's no power or might, except Allah' and many other sayings of the prophet Mohammed have emphasised that no one human being can do any kind of 'powerful' action without the leave of Allah.
Also tyranny in Islam is emphatically forbidden. After the passing away of the Prophet Mohammed and after the caliphate of Abu Bakr, Umar took over the Caliphate of Islam. ANd he was told at his 'inauguration' that he would have his head cut off if he ruled in a way other than the Prophet Mohammed. And it was the prophet Mohammed who in his life it is proved that he never led an offensive jihad.

The only kind of jihad allowed in Islam is defensive. What Bin laden is doing is illegitimate in Islam. Not has no kind of state authority declared Jihad, he is leading with an offensive jihad against targets which are forbidden to be attacked in Islam. THe 9/11 attacks, attacked, civilians, buildings (it is forbidden to destroy infastructure in jihad) and used fire as a means to destroy (anyone with sense can see that the planes would have blown up). To use fire as a weapon in jihad is forbidden. Hence the outlawing of nuclear firepower. Bin laden has justified everything from the direct sources of Islam. Hoever rather than mis-interpreting the Qu'ran the funny thing is that extremists can fit Quranic verse to many situations becasue of the way they view actions of America. The intentions of Aerica are being misinterpreted NOT THE VERSE OFTHE QURAN. many of the situations that are happening today are the result of things that happened before we were born. So Bin laden is taking the totality of all events that have happened and interpreting in a way which fits his agenda. Then fitting the verse of the Quran comes naturally once he has interpreted events in his way.

makaveli_411 · Mar 12, 2005

If you guys don't understand what jihad means then it's not even worth talking about. Jihad is basically the purification in one's mind, being in a state where self-actualization starts. The media and all that the rest twist too much of everything. But it's also true that Jihad involved a holy war, but before doing that one has to have a clear-cut idea in his mind. Guys if you're not too sure about the whole situation goo read a great book called:

Fitna: Guerre au Coeur De L'Islam from Gilles Kepel

Unfortunately this book is only in French, I didn't read it yet myself but Kepel is a frickin genius. This guy has proven himself to be a knowledgeable person when they had a debate on TV5 3 months ago, but I forgot what the show was called.

Peace

not really ken · Mar 12, 2005

makaveli_411 said:

Whoa, who is this guy. Give me a lowdown on some of the points he makes and believes in. I tried doing a search but can't find anything in english.
And since most people on the board don't read french, i'd reccomend Hamza Yusuf an American convert to Islam. If anyone wants to try and understand Islam then he is your man.

The following is an interview with Hamza Yusuf about the 9/11 attacks

Expert says Islam prohibits
violence against innocents

Muslim scholar: Terrorists are mass murderers, not martyrs
BY RICHARD SCHEININ

Mercury News

Tuesday's terrorist attacks have saddened and maddened millions -- and raised questions for many about Islam. Speculation abounds that the hijackers were inspired by terrorists like Osama bin Laden, who teach that violent acts can pave the way to paradise. But what does Islam really say about such matters? About jihad and martyrdom?

We asked Hamza Yusuf, an Islamic scholar in the East Bay, who said the attackers were ``enemies of Islam.'' Not martyrs, but ``mass murderers, pure and simple.''

Yusuf, whose articles about Islam are published internationally, talked about the attacks, the hysteria that he fears could grip the United States, and the role that Muslims and others must play in opposing violence. ``We've got to get to some deeper core values that are commonly shared,'' he said.

Why would anyone do what the hijackers did?

Religious zealots of any creed are defeated people who lash out in desperation, and they often do horrific things. And if these people indeed are Arabs, Muslims, they're obviously very sick people and I can't even look at it in religious terms. It's politics, tragic politics. There's no Islamic justification for any of it. It's like some misguided Irish using Catholicism as an excuse for blowing up English people.

They're not martyrs, it's as simple as that.

Because?

You can't kill innocent people. There's no Islamic declaration of war against the United States. I think every Muslim country except Afghanistan has an embassy in this country. And in Islam, a country where you have embassies is not considered a belligerent country.

In Islam, the only wars that are permitted are between armies and they should engage on battlefields and engage nobly. The Prophet Muhammad said, ``Do not kill women or children or non-combatants and do not kill old people or religious people,'' and he mentioned priests, nuns and rabbis. And he said, ``Do not cut down fruit-bearing trees and do not poison the wells of your enemies.'' The Hadith, the sayings of the Prophet, say that no one can punish with fire except the lord of fire. It's prohibited to burn anyone in Islam as a punishment. No one can grant these attackers any legitimacy. It was evil.

What role should American Muslims have in opposing this brand of violent Islam?

I think that the Muslims -- and I really feel this strongly -- have to reject the discourse of anger. Because there is a lot of anger in the Muslim communities around the world about the oppressive conditions that many Muslims find themselves in. But we have to reject the discourse of anger and we have to move to a higher moral ground, recognizing that the desire to blame others leads to anger and eventually to wrath, neither of which are rungs on a spiritual ladder to God. It's times like these that we really need to become introspective.

The fact that there are any Muslims -- no matter how statistically insignificant their numbers -- who consider these acts to be religious acts is in and of itself shocking. And therefore we as Muslims have to ask the question, ``How is it that our religious leadership has failed to reach these people with the true message of Islam?'' Because the acts of these criminals have indicted an entire religion in the hearts and minds of millions. Ultimately, this is a result of the bankruptcy of these type of people who claim to be adherents to the Islamic religion. These people are so bankrupt that all they have to offer is destruction.

Why do some people regard the hijackers as martyrs?

That's an abomination. These are mass murderers, pure and simple. It's like Christians in this country who blow up abortion clinics or kill abortion doctors. I don't think anyone in the Christian community, except a very extreme fringe, would condone that as an acceptable Christian response. In the same way, there's no Muslim who understands his religion at all who would condone this. One of the worst crimes in Islam is brigandry -- highway robbery, or today we'd say armed robbery -- because it disrupts the sense of well-being and security among civilians.

Suicide bombers have cited a Koranic verse that says, ``Think not of those who are slain in Allah's way as dead. Nay, they live, finding their sustenance in the presence of their Lord.''

That is meant for people who are legitimately defending the lands of Islam or fighting under legitimate state authority against a tyrannical leader. There is no vigilantism in Islam. Muslims believe in the authority of government.

Imam Malik, an early Islamic legal authority, said that 60 years of oppression under an unjust ruler is better than one hour of anarchy.

Then why is there such strong support in parts of the world for the attacks?

Because we're dealing in an age of ignorance and an age of anomie, the loss of social order. And people are very confused and they're impoverished. What Americans are feeling now, this has been business as usual for Lebanese people, Palestinian people, Bosnian people.

What about Israeli people?

Certainly the fear element is there for Israeli people -- that's true, and the terror that they've felt. And there are still a lot of Jewish people alive who remember the fear and terror of what happened in Europe, so that's not far from people's memories.

It seems at some point, the cycles of violence have to stop. It's a type of insanity, especially when we're dealing with nuclear power. People are saying that this was an attack on civilization -- and that is exactly the point. And I think the question we all have to ask is whether indiscriminate retaliation is going to help preserve civilization.

The perpetrators of this and, really, all acts of terror are people who hate too much. There's a verse in the Koran that says do not let the hatred of a people prevent you from being just. Being just is closer to piety. The evil of wrath is that justice and mercy are lost.

How do you explain Palestinians and others celebrating the attacks in the streets?

When you see ignorant people in the streets, rejoicing -- the Prophet condemned it. It's rejoicing at the calamities of your enemies, and Islam prohibits that. They do have a lot of anger toward America, because America produces much of Israel's military hardware and so many American tax dollars go to support Israel. You have a lot of animosity in the Arab world. But the vast majority of Arabs are horrified by what's happened. There's animosity in the Muslim world toward American foreign policy. This is the unfortunate price of power and its exercise in the world, that you incur the resentment and animosity of a lot of people. But the majority of Muslims who I know don't have anger toward individuals or the American people.

The concept of jihad has been widely used to justify violence.

Jihad means struggle. The Prophet said the greatest jihad is the struggle of a man against his own evil influences. It also refers to what Christians call a ``just war,'' which is fought against tyranny or oppression -- but under a legitimate state authority.

What is the Arabic word for martyr?

Shaheed. It means witness. The martyr is the one who witnesses the truth and gives his life for it. There are people in this country like Martin Luther King who would be considered a martyr for his cause. Also, if your home, your family, your property or your land or religion is threatened, then you may defend it with your life. That person is a martyr. But so is anybody who dies of terminal illness; it's a martyr's death. Because it's such a purification that whatever wrongs they once did, they're now in a state of purity.

And the greatest martyr in the eyes of God is the one who stands in the presence of a tyrant and speaks the truth and is killed for it. He is martyred for his tongue.

What does Islam say about suicide?

Suicide is haram in Islam. It's prohibited, like a mortal sin. And murder is haram. And to kill civilians is murder.

What is a martyr's reward?

The Prophet said that a martyr who dies doesn't have a reckoning on the Day of Judgment. It's an act through which he is forgiven. But the Prophet also said that there are people who kill in the name of Islam and go to hell. And when he was asked why, he said, "Because they weren't fighting truly for the sake of God.''

If there are any martyrs in this affair it would certainly be those brave firefighters and police that went in there to save human lives and in that process lost their own.

Reproduced with the permission of Mercury News

makaveli_411 · Mar 12, 2005

Nice interview Kevin, thanks for posting, it's pretty interesting. BTW Gilles Kepel is to France maybe what Edward Said was to America, a man with a load of knowledge but unfortunately I didn't do any research on him yet but you'll probably be able to find some info but in french maybe on yahoo.fr or something like that.

Peace

Anti-Muslim bias 'spreads' in EU

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