Affirmative Action
- Thread starter Illuminattile
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I completely understand what your saying, your saying the same thing over and over again, how can i not. Anyways, race is a factor and will always be a factor, if you don't believe that you are living an ignorant life. And you are damn right im defending Affirmative Action, why would i not want to see my people succeed. White people discriminate against me everyday, is it wrong that i discriminate back. I'll just drop this whole thing and keep taking the kicks why'll i'm already down, will that make you happy.
You keep talking about ability. Have you ever been to a school in the Burbs, have you ever been to a school in the inner-city, doubtful. I've attended both. It is ridiculous the amount of resources, textbooks, qualified teachers that the "white" school has compared to the "black" one. You have no chance to gain ability when there are no resources there to begin with, you can not become qualified when there is no quality of teaching going on. One of my history books when i was freshman still had RR as our president, meanwhile Clinton was in the white house, how ridiculous is that. Basically growing up in the inner-city gives you little chance of succeeding. Affirmative Action is helping by giving people like I was a chance to get out and become something, what is so wrong with that. Call it discrimination if you want but of course i'm going to see it completely different, your a white person is another country, how can you even understand what my type of people have gone through or even begin to comprehend. Discrimination is an everyday thing for me, and it always will be, not by choice but by the choice of others. For me to even argue against this would be blasphemy.
I completely see where you are coming from. Most white people think it isn't fair, and i don't think it is fair the type of headstart people in the burbs get. Schools, money etc. Maybe this will balance it out and bring some sort of equality, i'm hoping it does. I want the American dream too, it isn't just a white mans life it is a life for everyone. If something is gonna help that realism then i'm all for it.
You keep talking about ability. Have you ever been to a school in the Burbs, have you ever been to a school in the inner-city, doubtful. I've attended both. It is ridiculous the amount of resources, textbooks, qualified teachers that the "white" school has compared to the "black" one. You have no chance to gain ability when there are no resources there to begin with, you can not become qualified when there is no quality of teaching going on. One of my history books when i was freshman still had RR as our president, meanwhile Clinton was in the white house, how ridiculous is that. Basically growing up in the inner-city gives you little chance of succeeding. Affirmative Action is helping by giving people like I was a chance to get out and become something, what is so wrong with that. Call it discrimination if you want but of course i'm going to see it completely different, your a white person is another country, how can you even understand what my type of people have gone through or even begin to comprehend. Discrimination is an everyday thing for me, and it always will be, not by choice but by the choice of others. For me to even argue against this would be blasphemy.
I completely see where you are coming from. Most white people think it isn't fair, and i don't think it is fair the type of headstart people in the burbs get. Schools, money etc. Maybe this will balance it out and bring some sort of equality, i'm hoping it does. I want the American dream too, it isn't just a white mans life it is a life for everyone. If something is gonna help that realism then i'm all for it.
I really don't think you do understand what I'm saying, because you keep making comments like that.
Yes, it is wrong for you to discriminate. It simply exacerbates the situation and makes it even harder for there to be an indiscriminate society. You can't argue against discrimination if you discriminate against others yourself. If someone discriminates against you on a personal level you can't then turn around and discriminate against his entire race. If I were living in America, then Affirmative Action would be discriminating against me. How is that fair?
I wouldn't want to see "my people succeed" if I knew it was because of discrimination, and neither should you. I don't look at slavery and think "my people were successful, it's a shame they abolished that".
Then the solution there is to give more funding to underfunded schools and to raise the quality of teaching. Like I said, to give everyone an equal opportunity.
But you're not helping "your people" by relying on a discriminatory policy to get ahead. As I said before, it creates an "us vs. them" atmosphere. If you, as a black student, are given preferential treatment then that's going to cause animosity towards you. You should be aiming for a system where you and the next guy are on the same level, not where you are slightly ahead of him just because of your race. That's exactly the same as the system you're complaining about, merely with reversed roles.
Firstly, don't imply that only white people who are anti-Affirmative Action. That quote I posted up before, about preferences and quotas in California, came from a black professor. Dutch Martin is also a staunch critic of Affirmative Action.
Secondly, you're saying that people in poorer areas are disadvantaged and deserve special treatment. Why then is it not based on socieconomic factors rather than race? Is every black man poor? Is every white man rich? You can't blame people for being born into well-to-do families. You can't discriminate against them just because they have more money. You should be accepted to University or to a job based on your ability, and if a rich white man is more qualified than a poor black girl then the latter should get the job.
Thirdly, Affirmative Action doesn't bring about a 'balance'. The way to bring about a balance is to remove all discrimination, to provide those of a lower economic class with the financial aid they need to put them on a level playing field with those more well-off, to provide underfunded schools with the resources and qualified staff needed to provide a sufficient level of education. That would make the system balanced, do you understand that? That's the solution, not Affirmative Action.
It's a lot easier to say "Why don't we just let black kids get into University with lower grades", but that doesn't address the problems. You have to look at the long-term. You can't keep up this system of discrimination ignoring the background factors.
Yes, it is wrong for you to discriminate. It simply exacerbates the situation and makes it even harder for there to be an indiscriminate society. You can't argue against discrimination if you discriminate against others yourself. If someone discriminates against you on a personal level you can't then turn around and discriminate against his entire race. If I were living in America, then Affirmative Action would be discriminating against me. How is that fair?
I wouldn't want to see "my people succeed" if I knew it was because of discrimination, and neither should you. I don't look at slavery and think "my people were successful, it's a shame they abolished that".
Then the solution there is to give more funding to underfunded schools and to raise the quality of teaching. Like I said, to give everyone an equal opportunity.
But you're not helping "your people" by relying on a discriminatory policy to get ahead. As I said before, it creates an "us vs. them" atmosphere. If you, as a black student, are given preferential treatment then that's going to cause animosity towards you. You should be aiming for a system where you and the next guy are on the same level, not where you are slightly ahead of him just because of your race. That's exactly the same as the system you're complaining about, merely with reversed roles.
Firstly, don't imply that only white people who are anti-Affirmative Action. That quote I posted up before, about preferences and quotas in California, came from a black professor. Dutch Martin is also a staunch critic of Affirmative Action.
Secondly, you're saying that people in poorer areas are disadvantaged and deserve special treatment. Why then is it not based on socieconomic factors rather than race? Is every black man poor? Is every white man rich? You can't blame people for being born into well-to-do families. You can't discriminate against them just because they have more money. You should be accepted to University or to a job based on your ability, and if a rich white man is more qualified than a poor black girl then the latter should get the job.
Thirdly, Affirmative Action doesn't bring about a 'balance'. The way to bring about a balance is to remove all discrimination, to provide those of a lower economic class with the financial aid they need to put them on a level playing field with those more well-off, to provide underfunded schools with the resources and qualified staff needed to provide a sufficient level of education. That would make the system balanced, do you understand that? That's the solution, not Affirmative Action.
It's a lot easier to say "Why don't we just let black kids get into University with lower grades", but that doesn't address the problems. You have to look at the long-term. You can't keep up this system of discrimination ignoring the background factors.
It's a double-edged sword. Granted Affirmative Action breeds some further discrimination due to, at times, inferior people attaining jobs but it does help to give disadvantaged minorites a foothold which they might not otherwise gain. Vis-a-vis the U.S.A. I think Affirmitave Action has achieved all it can, perhaps now it's time for a rethink.
People must think we live in a Utopia or something. You can't just remove discrimination, it will always exist. And if someone hits me it is wrong for me to hit htem back? Shit i forgot, I'm supposed to take the kicks. Sometimes the only thing that can stop evil is evil, so be it. You try to make it seem like it is so easy, of course it is easy for a white man to figure out, nothing will change for him. If im a black student there is animosity towards me with or without Affirmative Action. The only reason we see most minorities at Universities nowadays is because of sports. "We make up 12% of the population but make up 90% of the Final Four" - Chris Rock. No one is going to fund the ghetto, what investor would do that? That's why Affirmative Action is the only answer right now, give us a chance to go to those schools with good teachers and up to date textbooks.
Also you do look at your people and look at slavery and feel that they were succeeding, they sure as hell thought so. If my people are starting to feel like they are succeeding so be it. If it takes the government making a policy that is helping my people so be it. Who is it hurting, seriously, and don't over exagerate the situation either. Maybe they are targeting minorities with Affirmative Action because they make up the majority of the poor people, ever think of that? It's like the game Guess Who?, to get to the one person you take out the majority first. Truthfully i think this whole thing is a waste of time, how can a white person understand what i feel or the hate i have encountered. Why aren't you complaining about me being able to drink from the same fountain as you, isn't that a form of Affirmative Action. I am being given oppurtunity, don't hate on me for taking it.
Also you do look at your people and look at slavery and feel that they were succeeding, they sure as hell thought so. If my people are starting to feel like they are succeeding so be it. If it takes the government making a policy that is helping my people so be it. Who is it hurting, seriously, and don't over exagerate the situation either. Maybe they are targeting minorities with Affirmative Action because they make up the majority of the poor people, ever think of that? It's like the game Guess Who?, to get to the one person you take out the majority first. Truthfully i think this whole thing is a waste of time, how can a white person understand what i feel or the hate i have encountered. Why aren't you complaining about me being able to drink from the same fountain as you, isn't that a form of Affirmative Action. I am being given oppurtunity, don't hate on me for taking it.
Man Zero shut the fuck up.Seriously shut the fuck up lol.Did I mention you have to shut the fuck up? 
...
You have no idea why I posted that or do you? Hm...Sorry I don't understand what was the point of your post besides asking for my attention?
Hm..I can explain my post and I will but only if you ask me to...Politely!
If you don't want me to explain it than I suggest you edit your post and shut the hell up...
Peace!
...You have no idea why I posted that or do you? Hm...Sorry I don't understand what was the point of your post besides asking for my attention?
Hm..I can explain my post and I will but only if you ask me to...Politely!
If you don't want me to explain it than I suggest you edit your post and shut the hell up...
Peace!
one mc on dj said:
Man Zero shut the fuck up.Seriously shut the fuck up lol.Did I mention you have to shut the fuck up? ...
You have no idea why I posted that or do you? Hm...Sorry I don't understand what was the point of your post besides asking for my attention?
Hm..I can explain my post and I will but only if you ask me to...Politely!
If you don't want me to explain it than I suggest you edit your post and shut the hell up...
Peace!
...You have no idea why I posted that or do you? Hm...Sorry I don't understand what was the point of your post besides asking for my attention?
Hm..I can explain my post and I will but only if you ask me to...Politely!
If you don't want me to explain it than I suggest you edit your post and shut the hell up...
Peace!
You can reduce it. People living under slavery probably doubted it would ever end. People living under segregation probably doubted it would ever end. As time goes by, tolerance increases.
This isn't a case of you defending yourself. If someone discriminates against you personally, it's fair for you to react against them personally (within reason). What you can't do is discriminate against other people of the same race as person. That's called racism. One white guy refuses to give you a job, it doesn't give you the right to take a job that someone else deserves.
I'm suprised beReal hasn't said this yet, but..."an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
I never said it was easy to level the playing field and remove discrimination. What's easy is to use a stop-gap measure like Affirmative Action. The easy answer is rarely the best one.
Of course there is racism in places, I'm not denying that. But do you think that animosity is going to be quelled if you get a job which you don't, based on qualifications, deserve to get?
You can't say "Affirmative Action increases the number of minorities in Universities, and therefore it's good". Firstly, the California example I gave says otherwise. Secondly, if you let all minorities into University, regardless of grades, that would increase the number of minorities in Univerisities. Would that improve the situation? No. It's not an achievement to increase the number of minorities in Univerisites if they're not all there on merit.
The government should be responsible for providing an adequate level of funding for schools. There are plenty of schemes in place to improve the 'ghettos'. I'm sure all these multi-millionnaire rappers who constantly proclaim their love for the 'ghettos' can afford to chip in a couple of weeks record sales to improve the situation. It's called charity, people don't do it expecting any return on investment.
No, I don't. I don't look at the war in Iraq and enjoy seeing white soldiers abuse and kill innocent Arabs. You can't honestly think I'm proud of discrimination against minorities? If you go up for a job and don't get it because of your race, do you think I smile and chalk one up for the white team?
I don't see how you can feel proud or successful if you've been allowed into a University or given a job because of your skin colour.
If I get a job based on merit, I would be proud of the effort I'd put in. If I get a job based on race, how can I be proud of my skin colour, something I had nothing to do with? Who is it hurting? Isn't that obvious? If I give someone a job because they're white, I'm hurting all the non-whites who applied for the job. If I give someone a job because they're black, I'm hurting all the non-blacks who applied for the job. But of course, when you see the word "white" you picture a spoiled rich white kid living in a mansion, and when you see the word "black" you think of a poor oppressed black kid living in the 'ghetto'.
Here's a wacky idea. If you want to target poor people, base your system on socieconomic status. Where's the sense in saying "A lot of minorities are poor, why don't we just give them the benefits?". If, as you now seem to be implying, Affirmative Action is supposed to help out poor people, why give a rich black kid preferential treatment over a poor white kid?
Stop trying to imply I'm racist. I'm the one arguing for equality, you're the one supporting a system of legalised discrimination.
I'm not complaining about you being able to drink from the same fountain as you. That's equality. If that were Affirmative Action, then you'd be allowed to drink from the fountain ahead of me. You'd be able to cut ahead of me in the queue because you're black and I'm white. That's essentially what Affirmative Action is.
This isn't a case of you defending yourself. If someone discriminates against you personally, it's fair for you to react against them personally (within reason). What you can't do is discriminate against other people of the same race as person. That's called racism. One white guy refuses to give you a job, it doesn't give you the right to take a job that someone else deserves.
I'm suprised beReal hasn't said this yet, but..."an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind".
I never said it was easy to level the playing field and remove discrimination. What's easy is to use a stop-gap measure like Affirmative Action. The easy answer is rarely the best one.
Of course there is racism in places, I'm not denying that. But do you think that animosity is going to be quelled if you get a job which you don't, based on qualifications, deserve to get?
You can't say "Affirmative Action increases the number of minorities in Universities, and therefore it's good". Firstly, the California example I gave says otherwise. Secondly, if you let all minorities into University, regardless of grades, that would increase the number of minorities in Univerisities. Would that improve the situation? No. It's not an achievement to increase the number of minorities in Univerisites if they're not all there on merit.
The government should be responsible for providing an adequate level of funding for schools. There are plenty of schemes in place to improve the 'ghettos'. I'm sure all these multi-millionnaire rappers who constantly proclaim their love for the 'ghettos' can afford to chip in a couple of weeks record sales to improve the situation. It's called charity, people don't do it expecting any return on investment.
No, I don't. I don't look at the war in Iraq and enjoy seeing white soldiers abuse and kill innocent Arabs. You can't honestly think I'm proud of discrimination against minorities? If you go up for a job and don't get it because of your race, do you think I smile and chalk one up for the white team?
I don't see how you can feel proud or successful if you've been allowed into a University or given a job because of your skin colour.
If I get a job based on merit, I would be proud of the effort I'd put in. If I get a job based on race, how can I be proud of my skin colour, something I had nothing to do with? Who is it hurting? Isn't that obvious? If I give someone a job because they're white, I'm hurting all the non-whites who applied for the job. If I give someone a job because they're black, I'm hurting all the non-blacks who applied for the job. But of course, when you see the word "white" you picture a spoiled rich white kid living in a mansion, and when you see the word "black" you think of a poor oppressed black kid living in the 'ghetto'.
Here's a wacky idea. If you want to target poor people, base your system on socieconomic status. Where's the sense in saying "A lot of minorities are poor, why don't we just give them the benefits?". If, as you now seem to be implying, Affirmative Action is supposed to help out poor people, why give a rich black kid preferential treatment over a poor white kid?
Stop trying to imply I'm racist. I'm the one arguing for equality, you're the one supporting a system of legalised discrimination.
I'm not complaining about you being able to drink from the same fountain as you. That's equality. If that were Affirmative Action, then you'd be allowed to drink from the fountain ahead of me. You'd be able to cut ahead of me in the queue because you're black and I'm white. That's essentially what Affirmative Action is.
Since you are pretty much saying the same things I am, well you try to give answers which are more like common sense, very very broad and sometimes have nothing to do with what I say I will only comment on this.
Your arguing not for equality but against Affirmative Action, I have been talking equality too, just in a more rational way. Are you implying that everything is good the way it is in a sense, since the answers you give for problems are just dumb, things that will never happen and can't happen, the reason i bring up the idea of a Utopia. Affirmative Action is not the best answer but it is the easiet, remember that Guess Who Simile, makes sense don't it, take out the large majority first. People want action now, not when the governemt is ready to fund certain projects, people want to see it in their lifetime not when white people feel like it.
Your arguing not for equality but against Affirmative Action, I have been talking equality too, just in a more rational way. Are you implying that everything is good the way it is in a sense, since the answers you give for problems are just dumb, things that will never happen and can't happen, the reason i bring up the idea of a Utopia. Affirmative Action is not the best answer but it is the easiet, remember that Guess Who Simile, makes sense don't it, take out the large majority first. People want action now, not when the governemt is ready to fund certain projects, people want to see it in their lifetime not when white people feel like it.
Affirmative Action isn't an answer to the problem at all. Not only is it unfair, it's also ineffective.
I don't think the solutions to the problem I suggested are easy, but I also don't think they are 'the stuff of dreams'. They are feasible, in the long run. Generating more funding for schools that need it isn't a "dumb" idea and it's not irrational. Obviously it's not going to happen overnight, but it's important for the long-run.
And no, the Guess Who simile didn't make any sense to me at all
I don't think the solutions to the problem I suggested are easy, but I also don't think they are 'the stuff of dreams'. They are feasible, in the long run. Generating more funding for schools that need it isn't a "dumb" idea and it's not irrational. Obviously it's not going to happen overnight, but it's important for the long-run.
And no, the Guess Who simile didn't make any sense to me at all
I think it is only a problem as soon as you start fucking overanalyzing...Affirmitive action..was meant as a good thing...or wasn't it..? I thought it was...Well newayz..you just take advantage of it or you don't...That's all...fuck all other things...If that means you can get some food on the table it's good...
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