Affirmative Action

[Illuminattile]

Affirmative action/positive discrimination. I'm interested to see if someone can come up with a credible argument for such policies.

It doesn't achieve a level of equality. Where discrimination exists, it supplants this discrimination with another kind of discrimination. Where discrimination does not exists, it introduces discrimination. I fail to see how forcing an organisation or an institution to hire or admit people based solely on their race, ethnicity or gender is supposed to remove the discrimination, if there is any, against such groups. What it does achieve is allowing those who are perhaps less qualified for the position to leapfrog those in non-preferred groups who deserve the position more. This approach itself can create an atmosphere in which effort is not necessarily rewarded. Those in preferred groups know that they don't have to work as hard as they might if they were in non-preferred groups. Those in the non-preferred groups know that even if they do perform well, they may miss out to those who performed worse, but are in preferred groups. This can also create a sense of resentment among those who miss out on jobs or places at a University because of their race.

I'm not for a second suggesting that the system is fine as it is and that there is no discrimination. If and where there is discrmination it should be dealt with and the situation rectified. Positive discrimination doesn't solve this problem, and merely creates problems anew.

Your thoughts.

 

[Amara]

I can see your point, and I tend to feel that it is yet another band-aid solution which detracts from deeper problems or root causes.

On the otherhand, if I look at it in the context of Aboriginal people here in Australia - they are given preferential treatment in regards to university placement and have extra governmental services available and can easily walk into government jobs and parliamentary roles if they choose.

The thing is, they really do need it. They are without a doubt, the poorest, less educated, unhealthiest, most unemployed and most disadvantaged group of Australians....(that's not an exaggeration either, I worked with the state Aboriginal Affairs minister last year, and these are the unfortunate facts).

They are necessarily given preference in order that these statistics might be reversed and Aboriginal societies can gain some status within the ranks so as to voice for their concerns. So, in that sense, it's not really discriminating non-Aboriginals, because we already hold a distinct advantage and have a choice of avenues available to succeed, whereas, sadly Aboriginal people do not. For the most part, people here don't understand how difficult life is for some. The situation is so dire a helpful leg up is the least we can do.

 

[makadon]

This article below explains how affirmitive actions hurts blacks.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/07/amar.affirmative.action/

 

[Pittsey]

It's a contradiction to the 2 wrongs don't make a right statement that my nan used to drum into me as a kid.
It's harsh if you are the person who is better qualified and doesn't get the job you've dreamt of for the simple fact you are white. But to the minority who's been downtrodden for years it's a step to righting some wrongs.
Amara had a very good point, and it affirmitive action in a more positive light.

I'm personally somewhat divided on my opnion, I'm unsure to whether it is actually a positive or negative move.

 

[one mc on dj]

positive discrimination only hurts pplz pride that's all...

It is unfortunetly reality that some ppl rather work with someone who is white or looks white...than others...I know all about it..I have a typical dutch last name..boring boring blah blah back on topic....

If you are part of the minority and a wealthy white guy no disrespect doesn't get the job although he is just as much qualified...for the job...I would still take the fucking job and would not give a fuck about what happened to someone else...!!!

Call me selfish but if I could get a chance like that I wouldn't let my pride fuck it up for me...

 

[Dryhus]

The thing is, they really do need it. They are without a doubt, the poorest, less educated, unhealthiest, most unemployed and most disadvantaged group of Australians....(that's not an exaggeration either, I worked with the state Aboriginal Affairs minister last year, and these are the unfortunate facts).

Then it should be socio-economic, not race-based. I'm sure there are equally poor Australians outside of the Aborigine population. There are probably also Aboringines who come from affluent backgrounds.

 

[ARon]

Stop acting like minorities are getting hired for every job. Just think if there wasn't Affirmative Action, then see how your views would change. I'm sorry but people would rather see a White man in a high place than a minority. Affirmative Action is trying to give minorities a chance in areas where most of the time they wouldn't have that chance, I don't see why people are against it. I didn't see people complaining when women were trying to get equal rights so why complain about this. This is just as important as using the same fountain or sitting in any seat on a bus, just it is more of an advancement when trying to make everybody equal.
Also if oyu want to act like Discrimination doesn't exist here is a little fact for you. Black men only make 70 cents for every 1 dollar that a White man makes, why is this? Is every single white man more qualified to earn better pay for the same job?
Affirmative Action is put in place for equality so why be against it?

 

[Illuminattile]

Stop acting like minorities are getting hired for every job. Just think if there wasn't Affirmative Action, then see how your views would change. I'm sorry but people would rather see a White man in a high place than a minority. Affirmative Action is trying to give minorities a chance in areas where most of the time they wouldn't have that chance, I don't see why people are against it. I didn't see people complaining when women were trying to get equal rights so why complain about this. This is just as important as using the same fountain or sitting in any seat on a bus, just it is more of an advancement when trying to make everybody equal.

Positive discrimination doesn't give the preferred groups EQUAL rights, it gives them GREATER rights. A woman can get into a university with lower grades, how is that equal?

Also if oyu want to act like Discrimination doesn't exist here is a little fact for you. Black men only make 70 cents for every 1 dollar that a White man makes, why is this? Is every single white man more qualified to earn better pay for the same job?

Did you not read my last paragraph? Nobody is suggesting that the system is completely fair and equal, but tilting the scales from one side to the other doesn't solve that problem. What if someone went to Rocafella Records and said "You don't have enough white artists. You need to hire some more even if they're not as talented as black artists. Would that be equality? What if basketball teams had to field white players even if they were less talented that black players?

It doesn't do anything to tackle discrimination. Like I said, it replaces one brand of discrimination with another.

 

[Little Skittle]

Positive discrimination doesn't give the preferred groups EQUAL rights, it gives them GREATER rights. A woman can get into a university with lower grades, how is that equal?


Did you not read my last paragraph? Nobody is suggesting that the system is completely fair and equal, but tilting the scales from one side to the other doesn't solve that problem. What if someone went to Rocafella Records and said "You don't have enough white artists. You need to hire some more even if they're not as talented as black artists. Would that be equality? What if basketball teams had to field white players even if they were less talented that black players?

It doesn't do anything to tackle discrimination. Like I said, it replaces one brand of discrimination with another.

i agree 100% :thumb:

 

[Amara]

Then it should be socio-economic, not race-based. I'm sure there are equally poor Australians outside of the Aborigine population. There are probably also Aboringines who come from affluent backgrounds.

I agree, (race based frameworks should be unnecessary) but what I was trying to highlight is that as a group, they are the poorest Australians (to be honest, there aren't too many "affluent" families at all). The situation of which is far worse than for the white majority, so there is almost no choice but to differentiate. Another issue is the maintenance of Aboriginal identity - to load their issues and problems into mainstream policy and affairs fails to take account of their unique experiences (such as the continual effects of the displacement of land). That is why we need Aboriginal people in governmental and parliamentary roles, so they can be a part of this country, direct their issues and concerns into action plans and escape the continual oppression - it wont disadvantage others, it will strengthen the national cohesion and better the lives for our poorest citizens.

 

[ARon]

The groups aren't equal to begin with. Treat it like a scale, give to the lesser side and it is equal, it isn't difficult to understand. What is the big deal anyway, do white people feel like there jobs are in jeporady, maybe, but in order to grow as a whole sometimes the ones at the top need to give in order to bring the bottom back up. I really don't see the bad part about this, on a grand scale, if it is carried out correctly, everyone should prosper.

 

[THA WILD]

Isn't affirmative action a glorified form of racism? Not only do people get preferential treatment based on their skin color (sound familiar?), or ethnicity, but it assumes that minorites can't make it on their own merit, and less is expected of them.

 

[Amara]

Would we prefer our governments do nothing and let minorities be unemployed, uneducated, poverty stricken and segregated?

I understand your point, but short of finding real sources of oppression, isnt it better that we attempt in some way to better the educational and financial situation of those who are disadvantaged than sit back and watch it worsen?

The assumption that it only occurs to relation to black or other ethnic groups is short sited, I only brought up that example because it is one that is apparent to me. It is used in regards to other circumstances, such as kids from country schools getting scholarships to university for example. So in that sense it is about creating equal opportunities, that may otherwise not exist due to circumstances.

 

[Illuminattile]

The groups aren't equal to begin with. Treat it like a scale, give to the lesser side and it is equal, it isn't difficult to understand. What is the big deal anyway, do white people feel like there jobs are in jeporady, maybe, but in order to grow as a whole sometimes the ones at the top need to give in order to bring the bottom back up. I really don't see the bad part about this, on a grand scale, if it is carried out correctly, everyone should prosper.

In the UK we don't have an 'affirmative action' program like the one in the United States, so it's not a case of me fearing for my (nonexistent) job. I stated in my posts why it doesn't actually redress the balance at all, and how it doesn't spur growth. It does nothing to promote tolerance, rather it can result in animosity towards those given preferential treatment by those not.

I don't understand how "everyone should prosper" from the program? Explain to me how I; a white, male student, would prosper from a system of discrimination against me?

Would we prefer our governments do nothing and let minorities be unemployed, uneducated, poverty stricken and segregated?

No, but if your government ensured them the same quality of education as the majority then it wouldn't be necessary to allow them to get jobs or places at Universities with fewer qualifications of lower grades. It doesn't just happen to underprivileged minorities either. Women also get preferential treatment.

I understand your point, but short of finding real sources of oppression, isnt it better that we attempt in some way to better the educational and financial situation of those who are disadvantaged than sit back and watch it worsen?

It's not better to employ (in your words) a 'band-aid solution'. It's not impossible to tackle institutionalised discrimination.

The assumption that it only occurs to relation to black or other ethnic groups is short sited, I only brought up that example because it is one that is apparent to me. It is used in regards to other circumstances, such as kids from country schools getting scholarships to university for example. So in that sense it is about creating equal opportunities, that may otherwise not exist due to circumstances.

There's a difference between giving students grants or scholarships based on their financial needs and their achievements. I see no problem in giving financial aid to someone from a poorer background to help them get into University. That is, assuming they show promise. I don't think every child from a poor family should be given a huge grant and sent to University ahead of those more well-off students with better grades. It's about trying to give everyone an equal opportunity from the beginning.

 

[ARon]

This will spur growth by giving more lower class people (mainly minorities) more money by giving them oppurtunity, what do people do with money, they spend it. Yes they spend money and give it right back to "the man." It seems to me like you think that businesses will go pick up anybody off the street in order to meet that color quota. It is simple, here in the US a white man is the best option. White men will be hired over any race, there was Affirmative Action before and it wasn't in favor of minorities trust me.
There is no equality to begin with so ask yourself how you make something equal, take away or give right, i don't see how your not seeing how this will make things equal. Truthfully people are blowing this issue way out of proportion. My last job, retail manager, our quota was to have at least 2 people on staff of ethnic background; meanwhile we were employing over 35 people. Most companies schools etc already meet their set quotas without affirmative action, it is just addressing the more prejudice.
Like Abercrombie and Fitch stores out here, in 3 of the 6 stores in southern cali there were no "minorities" on staff. The other 3 were put in the backroom for stocking and such duties. An employee actually sued the company because she saw the trend, it was young ,good looking, white employees. Abercrombie and Fitch said something of the likes that, they would scare there customers away because they normally do not wear that type of clothhing. Then they mentioned different attitudes of customers and employees would deter shoppers. They actaully tried to give reasons for this, failed miserably too. It was one of the weekly newsletters the mall gets, i doubt i have it still, it was over a year ago. But I mean come on, do you really think what they were doing is right. With Affirmative Action it would almost fix these problems, making things equal, not neccessarily taking away.
Why are you so against Affirmative Action anyway?

 

[Illuminattile]

This will spur growth by giving more lower class people (mainly minorities) more money by giving them oppurtunity, what do people do with money, they spend it. Yes they spend money and give it right back to "the man." It seems to me like you think that businesses will go pick up anybody off the street in order to meet that color quota. It is simple, here in the US a white man is the best option. White men will be hired over any race, there was Affirmative Action before and it wasn't in favor of minorities trust me.

I'm not saying that it's a level playing field. Please read my posts. I'm not saying that it should be left as it is. I'm sure there is discrimination, but changing one form of discrimination to another does not improve matters. Removing discrimination altogether is the only way to actually achieve equality.

There is no equality to begin with so ask yourself how you make something equal, take away or give right, i don't see how your not seeing how this will make things equal. Truthfully people are blowing this issue way out of proportion. My last job, retail manager, our quota was to have at least 2 people on staff of ethnic background; meanwhile we were employing over 35 people. Most companies schools etc already meet their set quotas without affirmative action, it is just addressing the more prejudice.

Explicit racial quotas are illegal in the United States of America. I don't see how anyone can defend them. How is it fair to say "You MUST hire x 'ethnic' employees". Why? If a store has a discriminatory policy, then whoever is enforcing this policy should be removed. They shouldn't say "OK, since you refuse to hire 'ethnic' employees, we're going to make you hire a couple'. What does that achieve? And what if no sufficiently qualified 'ethnic' people apply for the job, what are they supposed to do? If a store had an all-black staff, would they be forced to hire white employees?

"After group preferences and quotas were banned in California's state universities, the number of black students in the University of California system has risen."
-- Dr. Thomas Sowell, Quotas on trial.

It's not "equality" when an organisation or an institution is FORCED to hire minorities or women because they're minorities/women. If you want equality, then these processes should be race-blind as it is in other places. You should be chosen based on your ability, not on the colour of your skin. THAT is equality.

Like Abercrombie and Fitch stores out here, in 3 of the 6 stores in southern cali there were no "minorities" on staff. The other 3 were put in the backroom for stocking and such duties. An employee actually sued the company because she saw the trend, it was young ,good looking, white employees. Abercrombie and Fitch said something of the likes that, they would scare there customers away because they normally do not wear that type of clothhing. Then they mentioned different attitudes of customers and employees would deter shoppers. They actaully tried to give reasons for this, failed miserably too. It was one of the weekly newsletters the mall gets, i doubt i have it still, it was over a year ago. But I mean come on, do you really think what they were doing is right. With Affirmative Action it would almost fix these problems, making things equal, not neccessarily taking away.
Why are you so against Affirmative Action anyway?

Of course I don't think it's right for a store to discriminate against who they hire for certain positions. Nothing I've said implies that whatsoever. But just because a store doesn't have any 'minorities' on its staff, does that make it racist? No, it does not. What WOULD be racist would be for the store to actively seek out minority employees and give them the jobs regardless of ability. Race and gender should not be factors in employment, yet positive discrimination makes them factors.

I'm not the one defending a system in which people are discriminated against because of their race or gender. You are.

 

[Sebastian]

lol, it seems like he doesnt get what you are saying Illuminatille..im looking forward to another post of you

 

[groobz]

It is good sometimes, like Amara said, many aboriginals need all these extra services to get anywhere. But they also have to help themselves a bit more, i mean don't go waste your money on grog every dole check you get,, don't let your 12year old kids go out into the city at midnight and sniff paint.. just basic things they need to take control of.

I mean there's even a new government insentive that rewards aboriginals if they wash themselves. I mean comone now....

 

[Amara]

It is good sometimes, like Amara said, many aboriginals need all these extra services to get anywhere. But they also have to help themselves a bit more, i mean don't go waste your money on grog every dole check you get,, don't let your 12year old kids go out into the city at midnight and sniff paint.. just basic things they need to take control of.

I mean there's even a new government insentive that rewards aboriginals if they wash themselves. I mean comone now....

Which is a good indication of just how bad the situation is....anyone would think we were a third world country, seeing as the government is having to make such negotiations with its citizens. Wash your face and we will give you fuel... it's so sad, on the plus side at least it is a two way bargain - negotiated not imposed.

As for the alcohol and chemical sniffing, part of the problem there is that there isn't anything else to do - education and empolyment rates are so low....mostly because they are remote areas without functioning institutions - people have nothing else to do with their time.

But this is all off topic, sorry, just felt like saying it.

 

[groobz]

But Amara, as long as you can see that the Aboriginals need to pick up their act. Like we shouldn't have to tell them to wash themselves. We shouldn't have to have special alcohol free zones just for them. We can help, but they need to take some responsibility as well no doubt.