US and Canada cuting ties with Hamas government (discussion)

[Shahin]

To make a long story short, since the US and Canada (and less notably Israel) cut ties with the elected Palestinian Hamas government, it had me thinking, what does that mean in reality? I would like to hear what you think about it, is it the right thing seeing as how Hamas in the past have supported and funded suicide bombers? Or is doing this a bad decision seeing as Hamas what legitimately voted by the Palestinian people to represent them internationally. Do you think this is supportive of democracy by not acknowledging those who use undemocratic means to reach their goal, or is it undermining it by not listening to the majority ruling of a nation?

 

[Glockmatic]

Well Hamas is considered a terrorist organization in Canada, and Hamas would not renounce violence against Israel so i think its a good idea to stop funding or we'd be funding a war party

 

[DrugBa11ad]

Well Hamas is considered a terrorist organization in Canada, and Hamas would not renounce violence against Israel so i think its a good idea to stop funding or we'd be funding a war party

The United fucking States should be considered a terrorist organization if the Hamas are. A DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PARTY should not be cut off simply because the U.S. doesn't agree with them. Hell, if I was a poor Palestianian and was shit on all the time, I wouldn't be renouncing my violence either.

 

[Duke]

It may not have been the best move on the chessboard on the US/Canada part, but then again, who can say with a straight face that they can take Hamas serious as a political party? Not me anyway.

 

[S O F I]

The United fucking States should be considered a terrorist organization if the Hamas are.

Are you sure you want to make a statement such as this one?

A DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED PARTY should not be cut off simply because the U.S. doesn't agree with them. Hell, if I was a poor Palestianian and was shit on all the time, I wouldn't be renouncing my violence either.

People only like Hamas because of their social welfare program, no?

 

[PELLA]

i dont fucken know why we even started funding these sons of bitches in the FIRST PLACE! Create your own economy and make your own money.

 

[Shahin]

i dont fucken know why we even started funding these sons of bitches in the FIRST PLACE! Create your own economy and make your own money.

What I'm talking about isn't about funding though, it's about severing diplomatic ties.

 

[ill-matic]

So the US is all up for a democratically elected Palestinian government. They got what they received, but it turns out the Palestinians want Hamas - seeing as they democratically elected them. But oh no, the US doesn't like that and decided to sever connections with the party. What do the US want? Maybe we can turn this into some sort of conspiracy where the US deliberately advocated a democratic election as they knew the Palestinian people would vote for a group like Hamas, so they could deliberately exclude them and give further reasoning for bombardment missions? Hmm, now I'm rattling off.

This shows that the US idea of democracy is just rubbish. Their idea of democracy is what they want, and what is in their best interests. Why can't we use history as a lesson, and look at the situation in Northern Ireland with Sinn Fein? Deemed to be a terrorist organisation they were excluded from all forms of peace negotiations with Unionist parties, which led to further violence. However as soon as Blair intervened and allowed for the participation of Sinn Fein we have a peace settlement made, which eventuated in Sinn Fein disarming it's militant wing, the Irish Republican Army (IRA).

Isn't this just a slightly similar situation? A precedent has been set so why can't the US just cooperate? What's done is done - forcing the Palestinian people to change their democratically favoured government into something more favoured by the US just undermines the democratic principles which the US advocate so passionately. I think the solution exists in the US recognising that Hamas is a force not to be wreckoned with (in a political sense), and that the people want them. They should thus develop policies to accomodate this fact and learn to develop some sort of relationship with Hamas which will, by the Irish example, hopefully lead to actual peace rather than mindless bickering.

 

[Morris]

Maybe we can turn this into some sort of conspiracy where the US deliberately advocated a democratic election as they knew the Palestinian people would vote for a group like Hamas, so they could deliberately exclude them and give further reasoning for bombardment missions?

Nice conspiracy theory, except for the fact that America will be increasing humanitarian aid to the Palestinians, regardless of their government. They simply won't be handing the money to government officials, which is probably just as well because the Palestinian Authority was so terribly corrupt that the aid sent through official channels accomplished nothing except for financing terror.

Isn't this just a slightly similar situation?

The Sinn Fein wants the British influence out of Northern Ireland. Hamas's charter calls for the murder of every Jew in the Middle East.

I think the solution exists in the US recognising that Hamas is a force not to be wreckoned with (in a political sense), and that the people want them. They should thus develop policies to accomodate this fact and learn to develop some sort of relationship with Hamas which will, by the Irish example, hopefully lead to actual peace rather than mindless bickering.

If Hamas can't even bring itself to recognize Israel, why should the United States waste our money when Hamas is clearly not interested in a peace process?

 

[KDeezy]

i dont think cutting ties is the best idea here, atleast make an attempt to alleviate the fuckin problem, now this issue of israel, well honestly as much as i would love for a peaceful resolution to be made i just cannot understand how anyone can support a state that came in and occupied land that wasnt theres.

 

[Duke]

i dont think cutting ties is the best idea here, atleast make an attempt to alleviate the fuckin problem, now this issue of israel, well honestly as much as i would love for a peaceful resolution to be made i just cannot understand how anyone can support a state that came in and occupied land that wasnt theres.

It is theirs.

 

[KDeezy]

but both sides say its theres.


Spread some knowledge about this whole issue my way cuz from the tiny little bit that ive read about the issue is that the jewish people were given a certain amount of land after WW2 and then from that point on there was forced occupation.

If ur saying Jerusalem is theirs (jewish peoples), thats a tough one cuz all three religions, islam, judaism, and christianity hold that city/site as something very important and in a way theres.

What i am saying is simply this, Palestinian land was given to the displaced Jews k im fine with that but they occupied more land. If i am wrong in any of this then please send some links my way.

 

[Little Skittle]

There's no way that we should keep ties with Hamas government. Yes, they were elected democratically, but that's not the point. The point is they basically want a Jewish genocide. Israel has been an ally of the U.S. since it came to existance, so why would we support a government that wants to crush them?

 

[Duke]

but both sides say its theres.


Spread some knowledge about this whole issue my way cuz from the tiny little bit that ive read about the issue is that the jewish people were given a certain amount of land after WW2 and then from that point on there was forced occupation.

If ur saying Jerusalem is theirs (jewish peoples), thats a tough one cuz all three religions, islam, judaism, and christianity hold that city/site as something very important and in a way theres.

What i am saying is simply this, Palestinian land was given to the displaced Jews k im fine with that but they occupied more land. If i am wrong in any of this then please send some links my way.

Most of the land was bought by Jews from Palestinian land owners after the war. The occupied territories came from a number of different wars where Israel had to defend itself.

I'm not a fan of Israel, nor do I agree with most of their foreign policy, but it's not like they all barged in and literally took the land.


EDIT: Ramzi hit me up on this and set me straight cos i mixed some things up . They didnt really buy most of the land like i said. Jews were coming to Palestine in a trickle, picking up pace nearing WW2 and after WW2. Now, the British, which governed the Palestine region since WW1, were okay with the idea of both peoples living there. However, they were a bit lazy and a few odd declarations later, they managed to piss both sides off. The UN stepped in and "divided" the land (what they intended was the same as the British' original idea. 1 country, 2 peoples). Both parties thought the solution sucked big hairy balls and the Jews in turn proclaimed the nation of Israel.

 

[Cheesyphily16]

So what if the US and Canada want to cut off ties with a renowned terrorist group? Some of you are playing Hamas out to be the victims here. I mean what do you want? Should Canada and the US be forced to retain ties with them just because they happen to be the Palestinian gov't? Ill-Matic, democracy was carried out in Palestine, the US didn't like the government elected and thus, chose not to keep any diplomatic ties.

forcing the Palestinian people to change their democratically favoured government into something more favoured by the US just undermines the democratic principles which the US advocate so passionately.

You may have misread the first post, Canada and the US did not and have not "forced" any government into power. They just didn't agree with their political stances and made a decision to cut off ties. I don't see anything wrong with this.

 

[KDeezy]

thanks for the insight on the issue Duke, it puts a different spin on things compared to what i have been told by muslim friends @ school and such.

 

[Morris]

Spread some knowledge about this whole issue my way cuz from the tiny little bit that ive read about the issue is that the jewish people were given a certain amount of land after WW2 and then from that point on there was forced occupation.

The British had promised to parcel lands in that region for a Jewish state in 1917 via the Balfour Declaration. Jews migrated to the lands the British controlled as apportioned to the British from the League of Nations after the dissolution of the Ottoman Turkish Empire (which had previously ruled the region) after World War I.

They didnt really buy most of the land like i said. Jews were coming to Palestine in a trickle, picking up pace nearing WW2 and after WW2.

Actually, Jews were coming in at such a pace that the British put a quota on Jewish immigration before World War II so that Jews could only comprise 33% of the Mandated land's population, in the McDonald-White Papers (which also parceled off an Arab state of Jordan and barred Jews from migrating there). That agreement consigned a whole hell of a lot of European Jews to concentration camps. And regardless of how Jews got the land, whether buying it or renting it from British owners, none of the Jewish immigrants displaced a single Arab during the period.

However, they were a bit lazy and a few odd declarations later, they managed to piss both sides off. The UN stepped in and "divided" the land (what they intended was the same as the British' original idea. 1 country, 2 peoples).

The original idea was 2 countries for 2 peoples, with each ethnicity comprising a majority in their country. The UN Partition Plan would have accomplished this, with a 90% Palestinian majority in a contiguous Palestine and a 55% majority in a contiguous Israel.

Both parties thought the solution sucked big hairy balls and the Jews in turn proclaimed the nation of Israel.

That's not exactly a fair way to put it. While the Jews weren't terribly fond of the Partition Plan (they were 33% of the population, got 13% of the land and didn't get Jerusalem), the Jews accepted the Partition Plan, which allowed them to proclaim their state.

The Palestinians and the Arab World didn't recognize the Partition Plan, launched the 1948 war to eradicate Israel and lost. After a few more failed attempts to destroy Israel, now the Palestinians want the Partition Plan's borders for their Palestinian state, despite having never accepted the plan in the first place.

 

[KDeezy]

So basically, its flat out blindness to reality on behalf ot the Muslim world.

From what i have read from Duke and Morris, i honestly do not see the point or need for any of this bullshit that is currently happening.

The jews were willing to compromise enough yet that wasnt good enough. I really dont know how u can side with the palestinians in any of this, and this pains me to say it cuz coming from a muslim family i guess in a sense there is that connection but honestly palestine and Hamas have taken it too far. The land wasnt taken from them period and if the land was occupied well there was a god damn reason.


Not only that but we have another suicide bombing today over a jewish religious holiday, im sure that if Israel had an attack on a palestianian settlement during Eid or something half the muslim world would be up in arms about such a horrible action. Hypocrits plain and simple.