the real mustangs are back

[C.R.Y.]

http://www.leftlanenews.com/2006/10/31/ford-revives-boss-302-for-2007/

 

[DeeezNuuuts83]

That's cool and all, but it's basically just an engine swap. I thought it was going to be the whole car, like how the previous Mustangs had the Bullitt then the Mach 1 the following year.

 

[ARon]

Booooo!!

 

[C.R.Y.]

That's cool and all, but it's basically just an engine swap. I thought it was going to be the whole car, like how the previous Mustangs had the Bullitt then the Mach 1 the following year.

those cars were not a whole new car. just some touches to them. kinda like this car, which looks pretty good. but now you have the choice of engines kinda like the old school muscle cars had. like a camaro from factory couldve had a Inline 6, 327 V8, 350 v8, HP 350, 427, 383, etc.

 

[C.R.Y.]

Booooo!!

and why are you booing. what would you prefer?

 

[DeeezNuuuts83]

those cars were not a whole new car. just some touches to them. kinda like this car, which looks pretty good. but now you have the choice of engines kinda like the old school muscle cars had. like a camaro from factory couldve had a Inline 6, 327 V8, 350 v8, HP 350, 427, 383, etc.

Of course they weren't "all-new" cars. What I meant to say, was that it was at least a whole car. This whole 2007 Boss business is just a crate engine, not a car. Translation? Waste of money for now. It's not like there are tons of engineless 2005+ Mustangs sitting around awaiting a new engine transplant.

 

[ARon]

and why are you booing. what would you prefer?

I'm booing Ford's further attempt to get old males to re live their childhood dream. If they want to re-invent something do it with technology too cus the whole getting like 70 hp per litre is weak. Personally I'd prefer something thats engineering is at least up to date, not decades behind.

 

[DeeezNuuuts83]

I'm booing Ford's further attempt to get old males to re live their childhood dream. If they want to re-invent something do it with technology too cus the whole getting like 70 hp per litre is weak. Personally I'd prefer something thats engineering is at least up to date, not decades behind.

Well said. My problem with Ford was that they have always been living in the past in terms of technology, engineering and styling. I think retro styling cues and stuff paying homage to the past is all good, but Ford completely shows a total lack of creativity... except they don't call it that, they call it "classic." I think that Ford should ditch the idea of jacking some older Mustang trim level nameplate every model year (Bullitt, Mach 1, GT500, Boss) and come up with something new rather than looking through their Ford history books as Cliffs Notes.

 

[C.R.Y.]

I'm booing Ford's further attempt to get old males to re live their childhood dream. If they want to re-invent something do it with technology too cus the whole getting like 70 hp per litre is weak. Personally I'd prefer something thats engineering is at least up to date, not decades behind.

there goes the same hp per litre argument. how many people use that crap. it doesnt matter, what matters is the power made. because of hp /litre was so important the s2000 would be better than ferraris. but its not. ford's catering to whats called muscle car lovers. not everybody is an import enthusiast. i myself like all kinds of cars. but i know PLENTY of young people who prefer muscle cars. so its not just the old people. look at all the younger people online who like muscle cars. go check all the vette forums, the mustang forums, the camaro forums. a lot of them people are only around 30 on average. so theyre not old enough to remember the muscle car era. and what do you mean decades behind? you do realize pushrod technology is actually newer than ohc right? but if you really wanna talk hp/litre, the 331ci high performance engine puts out 500hp all motor. thats 92hp/litre which is pretty good. not that its important to me, but you seem to like it.

 

[C.R.Y.]

Well said. My problem with Ford was that they have always been living in the past in terms of technology, engineering and styling. I think retro styling cues and stuff paying homage to the past is all good, but Ford completely shows a total lack of creativity... except they don't call it that, they call it "classic." I think that Ford should ditch the idea of jacking some older Mustang trim level nameplate every model year (Bullitt, Mach 1, GT500, Boss) and come up with something new rather than looking through their Ford history books as Cliffs Notes.

like the saying goes, "if it aint broke dont fix it". the V8 pushrod engines have been working great. even the ohc make good power. muscle cars have always been about big cubes, big power, big torque and loud roar. why change that now when its tradition. i mean, wouldnt you prefer your evo with a 6-speed manual instead of a 6-speed tiptronic. im sure the tiptronic would easily outrun the manual. but wouldnt you rather have more fun with the manual (the old technology in this case)? about the looks. its your opinion, however sales are good with the stang so its working for them.

 

[ARon]

there goes the same hp per litre argument. how many people use that crap. it doesnt matter, what matters is the power made.

Seriously? You can make huge amounts of power but if you have to much weight it obviously will not move. So to say that only power made counts is beyond idiotic. Also the only reason an s2000 isnt in the same class as the Ferrari and other European power houses is cus the engine size. Think if it had that power to weight ratio with a 5.7 litre engine.

Younger people being into muscle cars isn't anything but it being shoved down our throats daily, by our parents, our new "this is our country" adds and so forth. Muscle cars is our thing, so be it, I like em. But this new shit is nothing short of pathetic. Deez is right, come with something new cus this whole thing is getting tiresome. At least the Vette makes somewhat of a statement, the new Camaro coming out may do the same also, but Ford just seems lost.

I aint tryin to piss no one off cus I know how people get when defending cars but seriously, putting out big numbers from pathetic engineering will only get you so far, and very very little respect.

 

[C.R.Y.]

Seriously? You can make huge amounts of power but if you have to much weight it obviously will not move. So to say that only power made counts is beyond idiotic. Also the only reason an s2000 isnt in the same class as the Ferrari and other European power houses is cus the engine size. Think if it had that power to weight ratio with a 5.7 litre engine.

too much weight? these engines dont weigh tons. its not that big of a weight difference. with the power these engines makes the weight isnt gonna matter. look at the m5 and m6 bmws does with only 383lbft. imagine what a mustang with more torque and less weight can do. imagine a new 302 boss with the 331 high performance engine that makes 500hp. do you know what times that will run? a heavier gt500 with the same hp runs low 12s at 117mph. that means the 302 boss weighing in at around 3500lbs should easily be high 11s at over 120mph. thats very good performance.

Younger people being into muscle cars isn't anything but it being shoved down our throats daily, by our parents, our new "this is our country" adds and so forth. Muscle cars is our thing, so be it, I like em. But this new shit is nothing short of pathetic. Deez is right, come with something new cus this whole thing is getting tiresome. At least the Vette makes somewhat of a statement, the new Camaro coming out may do the same also, but Ford just seems lost.

no its personal taste. kinda like my father likes nothing but muscle cars and few imports. but hes really a muscle car freak. i came out the opposite and am more on the import side. im sure im not the only person. theres plenty of people in the south (muscle car land) who own imports. how is it the mustang pathetic? ford has been doing good with the mustang and doesnt need to prove anything else since they are the ones who won the pony car war. the camaro is the one that needs to show its worthy competition since their sales werent so good. ford might be lost, but its not with the mustang. its with every other car.ford knew the 6 cylinders were the money makers from the day 1. they stuck with that strategy and look how successful the mustang has been.

I aint tryin to piss no one off cus I know how people get when defending cars but seriously, putting out big numbers from pathetic engineering will only get you so far, and very very little respect.

respect? the mustang name has respect all around the world, the mustang is known all around. that "old engineering" is still performing good. hence also why other companies use ohc. its old technology but it still performs good. look at the hemi guys. theyre using old technology. but making great numbers and running great times. you dont even wanna know the hp a blown 540 hemi, or a twin turbo v10 from the viper, or a naturally aspirated chevy 572 big block would put out. if weight was so critical and it was old technology, them engines would be obsolete. but i bet if you go down to your local track, theyll be tearing it up. heres some old technology.

http://videos.streetfire.net/search/nelson/0/6024e70a-9390-4ae9-8470-980a00f132ff.htm

 

[DeeezNuuuts83]

like the saying goes, "if it aint broke dont fix it". the V8 pushrod engines have been working great. even the ohc make good power. muscle cars have always been about big cubes, big power, big torque and loud roar. why change that now when its tradition. i mean, wouldnt you prefer your evo with a 6-speed manual instead of a 6-speed tiptronic. im sure the tiptronic would easily outrun the manual. but wouldnt you rather have more fun with the manual (the old technology in this case)? about the looks. its your opinion, however sales are good with the stang so its working for them.

I would hate a tiptronic, but I would love a DSG, which is superior to a basically every transmission in every way in this day and age. I might lose the "fun" of a manual, but I'm still in complete control of every gear change while driving faster with both hands always on the steering wheel. While I'm a fan of a manual transmission, I'm not so in love with it to the point where I'd pick it over something else that surpasses it in everything. (I might add that there is a good chance that they can set up everything so that the engine doesn't lose boost when shifting since your foot never leaves the throttle.)

imagine a new 302 boss with the 331 high performance engine that makes 500hp. do you know what times that will run? a heavier gt500 with the same hp runs low 12s at 117mph. that means the 302 boss weighing in at around 3500lbs should easily be high 11s at over 120mph. thats very good performance.

First of all, your syntax is incorrect. The number denotes the displacement, so you can't have a "302 boss with the 331 high performance engine," it would just be the Boss 331, if that is how they're naming them. But that aside, your numbers are completely wrong. While I'm not going to spend my time arguing about GT500 timeslips, a Mustang with a Boss 331 will NOT do 11s. The power-to-weight ratios never lie, and while it's a possibility that it could outgun a heavier GT500 (purely speculation, since all we were provided with was a 500 hp rating and a 331 cubic inch displacement and no torque ratings, power curves, redlines, etc.), you're fucking nuts if you think that it's going to be faster by that much. And let's not forget that you're looking at over $4k for an entire Boss 302 engine and over $10k for the Boss 331. No thanks.

respect? the mustang name has respect all around the world, the mustang is known all around. that "old engineering" is still performing good.

The reason why the Mustang name is "respected" and known all around the world is because of the original models from the '60s which are timeless classics and were actually good cars. But outside of the U.S., the admiration stops there. Do you see anyone in the UK fighting for any other Mustangs besides the classic ones? Nope. In case you didn't know, car publications and shows overseas completely shit on the Mustang, but do acknowledge its straightline abilities and the fact that it is a cool-looking ride.

you dont even wanna know the hp a blown 540 hemi, or a twin turbo v10 from the viper, or a naturally aspirated chevy 572 big block would put out. if weight was so critical and it was old technology, them engines would be obsolete. but i bet if you go down to your local track, theyll be tearing it up. heres some old technology.

Well a stock Viper V-10 puts out 415-510 hp (depending on model year), so it's not hard to figure out that a twin-turbo version is capable of twice that if properly tuned. But those other engines from the '70s are used because they make big numbers out of big engines at a cost: pollution. However, a lot of those cars and engines made in 1971 or earlier aren't required to pass federal smog tests, so that's why people still use them, because they can easily make more power without worry about that smog check coming up in a couple years. Us modern people have to take that into consideration.

C.R.Y, I don't mean to make personal attacks or be rude (hopefully I'm not) and I hate to bring in the age argument again, but you're still 17. You could read all the books and magazines in the world, but there's nothing like good old-fashioned experience that will change your outlook on things. Here are some things to consider:

* While the quarter-mile is a good standard of performance, it is just one standard of many. Don't be scared to talk about other standards (braking, slalom, lateral acceleration, etc.), or even subjective standards that aren't rated with numbers.
* While I'm not in your head, I remember how I looked at cars when I was 17, and I imagine that I have an idea how you think. When I was that age, I used to look at performance numbers, whether in magazines or on some online message forum, and I always figured that there was somebody who could probably push the car a few tenths faster than what I already saw, so I would just go ahead and tell myself that whatever car was actually capable of faster times. Unlikely. Most magazine drivers and even the online people are already pushing it to 95% of its abilities, and 100% would probably just nudge it a could hundredths faster, nothing drastic. Plus the fact that you said the Boss 331 would do "high 11s at over 120mph" tipped me off. I remember when I was 17 and heard about newer cars, I would automatically think that the increase in performance would be a significantly huge leap over the previous model. In your case, all we have is a hp rating (which hasn't even been proven) and a displacement... no torque rating (which probably won't be close to the GT500's 480 lb.-ft or as flat of a curve), no redline (probably won't even be 7k rpm), etc. And I'm not sure if this 5.4-liter Boss motor (since 331 = ~5.4 liters) putting out that much hp will be street legal and pass smog tests.

 

[C.R.Y.]

I would hate a tiptronic, but I would love a DSG, which is superior to a basically every transmission in every way in this day and age. I might lose the "fun" of a manual, but I'm still in complete control of every gear change while driving faster with both hands always on the steering wheel. While I'm a fan of a manual transmission, I'm not so in love with it to the point where I'd pick it over something else that surpasses it in everything. (I might add that there is a good chance that they can set up everything so that the engine doesn't lose boost when shifting since your foot never leaves the throttle.)

ok, i understand that.

First of all, your syntax is incorrect. The number denotes the displacement, so you can't have a "302 boss with the 331 high performance engine," it would just be the Boss 331, if that is how they're naming them. But that aside, your numbers are completely wrong. While I'm not going to spend my time arguing about GT500 timeslips, a Mustang with a Boss 331 will NOT do 11s. The power-to-weight ratios never lie, and while it's a possibility that it could outgun a heavier GT500 (purely speculation, since all we were provided with was a 500 hp rating and a 331 cubic inch displacement and no torque ratings, power curves, redlines, etc.), you're fucking nuts if you think that it's going to be faster by that much. And let's not forget that you're looking at over $4k for an entire Boss 302 engine and over $10k for the Boss 331. No thanks.

im sure itll have at least 400lbft. its a v8 so its gonna have torque. if something like a supra can make the 1/4 miles over 118mph in the 11s with only 500bhp, im sure the mustang with more low end torque will do better. even the fat gt500 does it at 12.2 at 117. the thing will weigh in at around 35-3600 lbs. so itll be lighter than the gt500. that means with a good driver a boss with a 331 would hit high 11s.

The reason why the Mustang name is "respected" and known all around the world is because of the original models from the '60s which are timeless classics and were actually good cars. But outside of the U.S., the admiration stops there. Do you see anyone in the UK fighting for any other Mustangs besides the classic ones? Nope. In case you didn't know, car publications and shows overseas completely shit on the Mustang, but do acknowledge its straightline abilities and the fact that it is a cool-looking ride.

i agree with you on the respect part. but it still gets some respect from the shows.

Well a stock Viper V-10 puts out 415-510 hp (depending on model year), so it's not hard to figure out that a twin-turbo version is capable of twice that if properly tuned. But those other engines from the '70s are used because they make big numbers out of big engines at a cost: pollution. However, a lot of those cars and engines made in 1971 or earlier aren't required to pass federal smog tests, so that's why people still use them, because they can easily make more power without worry about that smog check coming up in a couple years. Us modern people have to take that into consideration.

thats true but the v8s of today are also power monster while passing smog. even then, most people when they mod these days run gutted cats and sometimes even straight pipes. and im talking on a number of different cars, from supras to evos to civics. pretty much any car so if anything they all do pollution. do you know how many civics i see daily that have broken piston rings and burn oil like crazy? plenty :laugh:

C.R.Y, I don't mean to make personal attacks or be rude (hopefully I'm not) and I hate to bring in the age argument again, but you're still 17. You could read all the books and magazines in the world, but there's nothing like good old-fashioned experience that will change your outlook on things. Here are some things to consider:

i didnt read anything from the books though. its experience from the forums, going to the track, having family members with fast cars, and common sense.

 

[C.R.Y.]

why do you people always bash my poor mustang whenever mentioned?

lol

 

[C.R.Y.]

its just my preference of cars. i know the mustang isnt as advanced as other cars. but i still love the old school look with the v8 sound and power.

 

[DeeezNuuuts83]

even the fat gt500 does it at 12.2 at 117. the thing will weigh in at around 35-3600 lbs. so itll be lighter than the gt500. that means with a good driver a boss with a 331 would hit high 11s.

I didn't want to go back to this old argument, but I refuse to believe that some guys online, no matter how much experience they have, even if it is Dale Earnhardt Jr., can drive a car that several magazines have tested almost a FULL second faster in the quarter-mile than they could. They're either lying or the car is no longer COMPLETELY 100% stock. End of story.

thats true but the v8s of today are also power monster while passing smog. even then, most people when they mod these days run gutted cats and sometimes even straight pipes. and im talking on a number of different cars, from supras to evos to civics. pretty much any car so if anything they all do pollution.

Of course all cars pollute. What I was saying was that the cars at least pollute within federal guidelines. Those old musclecar engines that aren't required to meet emissions standards are spewing out so many more pollutants than even a lot of today's heavily modified street cars.

i didnt read anything from the books though. its experience from the forums, going to the track, having family members with fast cars, and common sense.

Common sense should tell you that a stock GT500 can break into the 12s, but won't do low-12s!

why do you people always bash my poor mustang whenever mentioned?

lol

It's not the Mustang as much as it is Ford being a bunch of idiots with no imagination or innovation whatsoever.

its just my preference of cars. i know the mustang isnt as advanced as other cars. but i still love the old school look with the v8 sound and power.

That's totally cool. I don't think anyone is saying that you can't like Mustangs, musclecars, American V-8s or whatever. I happen to like them too, but I think it's your mindset about the Mustang in particular that people are disagreeing with. It's not a bad car, I almost got a Mustang GT when the new ones first came out.

Does C.R.Y's affinity for the GT500 remind anyone of tennis_dog's affinity for the GTO?

 

[C.R.Y.]

I didn't want to go back to this old argument, but I refuse to believe that some guys online, no matter how much experience they have, even if it is Dale Earnhardt Jr., can drive a car that several magazines have tested almost a FULL second faster in the quarter-mile than they could. They're either lying or the car is no longer COMPLETELY 100% stock. End of story.

they have hit low 12s bone stock. the key to it is driving the car like you stole it. powershifting, a hard but fast launch, and the ability to judge the shift points to get the best times. its the same with any car. magazines for example got high 11s out of the vette z06. ranger from the z06 forum squeezed low 11s by adjusting tire pressure and powershifting it. powershifting doesnt harm the car as long as it is done correctly. same thing with the older z06s. magazines got low to mid 12s. theres drivers who squeezed high 11s out of them by doing the same thing.