God Bless Amerikka & Its Law Keepers

Kadafi Son

Well-Known Member
#1
New Footage of Oakland Man Murdered By BART Cop : Indybay


The 22-year-old man killed by a BART police officer early New Year's Day was lying face-down on the train platform, his hands behind him waiting to be cuffed, when he was shot in the back, a lawyer newly hired by the man's family said Saturday
More Bay Area News

Attorney John Burris said in an interview that a number of witnesses to the shooting at the Fruitvale Station in Oakland have told him Oscar Grant was posing no threat to the officer or anyone else when he was fatally wounded. The shooting occurred around 2:15 a.m. after police responded to a report of a fight on a train bound for Dublin/Pleasanton.

"If it happened the way the (witnesses) said it happened, he's on his stomach, his hands pulled up behind his back, he's compliant, the officer is standing over him and all of a sudden he shoots," Burris said. "The bullet went through his lower back, hit the ground and ricocheted through the upper part of his body."

The witnesses told him police handcuffed Grant after he was shot, but removed the cuffs just before news reporters arrived, Burris said. No weapons were found on Grant or anyone else involved in the altercation on the train.

Grant, of Hayward, died at Highland Hospital in Oakland several hours later. BART officials say the officer who shot him, a BART police officer for almost two years, has been placed on administrative leave during an investigation. He has not been publicly identified.

Burris, who has filed numerous suits against police, said he has been hired by the mother of Grant's 4-year-old daughter and would discuss their plans at a news conference today.

BART spokesman Jim Allison said the transit system has not yet received the results of an autopsy performed Friday by the Alameda County coroner's office. He said investigators have not reached any conclusions yet on questions surrounding the incident, including why the officer drew his gun and whether the shooting was deliberate or accidental.

"Officers are trained to unholster that weapon only when there is a perceived possibility that there is a need for deadly force," Allison said. "They're also trained to keep their finger off the trigger until the very moment they would be required to shoot for their own or another's safety."

Burris said he doesn't see how the shooting could be considered accidental.

"He had the gun out, had the finger on the trigger," Burris said. "In order for the gun to go off, he had to pull the trigger. It looks like an intentional act. The gun was not defective, as far as I know."

The incident "has all the earmarks of manslaughter or a second-degree murder case," the lawyer said. BART officials said earlier that the case is already under investigation by the Alameda County district attorney's office.

Burris also said witnesses told him that the fight on the train was apparently between Grant and an older man he hadn't previously met. For unknown reasons, he said, the two men shouted at each other, then grabbed and wrestled with one another, and continued grappling when the train reached Fruitvale.

Burris said BART police stopped the fight and took Grant and several others into custody. Officers were armed with stun guns as well as pistols, Burris said, and a witness said Grant cried out, as he lay on the platform, "Please don't Tase me, I have a 4-year-old daughter."

BART spokesmen have said several people were detained for questioning but no one was arrested. But Burris said five people who were with Grant have told him they were held in handcuffs for five hours before being released without charges.

"That's a long time to be detained" and should be considered an arrest, he said.

E-mail Bob Egelko at begelko@sfchronicle.com.

This article appeared on page B - 1 of the San Francisco Chronicle

.........................

I know think like this happen everyday (especially to black people), but this makes me angry enough to do somethin' drastic
 

vg4030

Well-Known Member
#2
It sounds like it was accidental, there is so much chaos around them that if he had his finger on the trigger he could have accidentally pulled it if he was nudged or startled.. he was only a cop for 2 years.. perhaps it was inexperience.. I doubt it was a black thing
 

Kadafi Son

Well-Known Member
#3
It sounds like it was accidental, there is so much chaos around them that if he had his finger on the trigger he could have accidentally pulled it if he was nudged or startled.. he was only a cop for 2 years.. perhaps it was inexperience.. I doubt it was a black thing
Of course it was accidental. Force an unarmed guy with plastic handcuffs face flat on the ground with another cop's knee on his neck, open your holster, pull out your glock, pull the trigger and POP. Even though the only people arm him were guys who were already held up in position on the wall and nobody was touching or threatening him, he felt startled enough to execute the poor guy like that, even though he was trained to handle himself in those types of situations. Accident my azz. And 2 yearz isn't inexperience. A so-called mistake that would cost anybody else their job. All this 1 guy got was pay leave. A vacation basically.
 

vg4030

Well-Known Member
#4
Of course it was accidental. Force an unarmed guy with plastic handcuffs face flat on the ground with another cop's knee on his neck, open your holster, pull out your glock, pull the trigger and POP. Even though the only people arm him were guys who were already held up in position on the wall and nobody was touching or threatening him, he felt startled enough to execute the poor guy like that, even though he was trained to handle himself in those types of situations. Accident my azz. And 2 yearz isn't inexperience. A so-called mistake that would cost anybody else their job. All this 1 guy got was pay leave. A vacation basically.
Thats such bullshit.

OK, So you say he wasnt inexperienced?.. So then in his wealth of 2 years why would he deliberatley shoot an unarmed man in a crowded PUBLIC place with not only witnesses but also cctv running?? Why dont you wait to see the facts before saying its just another white cop killing a black guy.. Im guessing you will say 'the white system' will just find him innocent??

I really hope this negative attitude isnt being taught to the kids you counsel.
 

Kadafi Son

Well-Known Member
#5
Thats such bullshit.

OK, So you say he wasnt inexperienced?.. So then in his wealth of 2 years why would he deliberatley shoot an unarmed man in a crowded PUBLIC place with not only witnesses but also cctv running?? Why dont you wait to see the facts before saying its just another white cop killing a black guy.. Im guessing you will say 'the white system' will just find him innocent??

I really hope this negative attitude isnt being taught to the kids you counsel.
Wtf?!

Ok first of all, I didn't even bring up the "race card" in any of my dialogue. I could have said it was race issue, but I didn't because this is about the justice system as a whole AND a human being. But since you brought up the race card, then I'm tell ya like this. The cop will most likely get the charges dropped. American history time and time again has proven this. Sean Bell, Amadou Diallo, thousands of other black people. Cops kill an unarmed black man and are most likely gonna be found not guilty. So if anything, my attitude is justified. Then second, the officers were already using excessive force on Grant when they were forcing him down on the ground, even though he was cooperating. Not threatening anyone around him. Hands flat on the ground. There wasn't ANY need to pull out a gun. And all the cop got so far was administrative leave. If you gotta bring that type of attitude towards me, then I don't expect you to understand a tragedy like this.
 

vg4030

Well-Known Member
#6
^^ My bad, I didnt mean to lump you in with all the people who are rioting and destroying businesses over this shooting. I just assumed you had the same attitude..

Anyway, I still think it was an accident
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#7
It's incredibly hard to understand from both sides.

Accidental? He accidentally drew his weapon, pointed it and accidentally pulled the trigger? That's wtf-soup.

But on the other hand, would he delibirately pull his gun and shoot a man in the back, on the ground? That's also wtf-soup.

This whole situation is wtf-soup. I can't imagine either scenario.
 

Kadafi Son

Well-Known Member
#9
Keep in mind that they lied about there being any videos of this. Videos didn't release til this week. THats not being discussed in the news

If it was an accident, which may or may not have been, the homicidal officer could have at least sent an apology to the grieving family. All he did was resign without saying a worry.

As far as vandalizing black businesses, the Oakland Police department is sophisticated enough to utilize agents provocateur... This is were agents are sent undercovever to insight and/or commit violence (often against the innocent) in order to cause dissent amongst the protesters and to justify the police reaction (whatever it may be).. This tactic is used at protest and demonstrations all around the world. It's been used at WTO summits, in Iraq, and even in the recent Greece riots.


AGENTS PROVOCATEURS CAUGHT ON VIDEO AT NORTH AMEERICAN LEADERS SUMMIT

2 SSPECIAL FORCES SOLDIERS CAUGHT PROVOCATEURING IN BASRA,
IRAQ (they dressed up like Shiite Muslims and attacked Iraqi police officers)


Agents Provocateurs at Seattle WTO summit

Then as far as the rioting, yea, I'm definately not for rioting, but the rioting in Oakland isn't even a real riot. A real riot would be the Boston Tea Party. Oops, American History books glorifies and justifies that...

You ever heard of the Boston Tea Party? The American revolution? See, when certain people (the white people /"patriots") gets violent, you call it a tea party and celebrate it but when black people get violent its a riot and you condemn it. Thats part of the problem we face. Not only are our people wrongly enslaved (incarcerated), brutalized, and murdered by this criminal system (even if an accident occurred, it would be punishable), but they've murdered and twisted our minds into believing that we shouldnt defend outrselves or stand up for justice.

And what happened in Oakland yesterday wasnt even close to a riot. If you want to see a riot, research whats happening right now in Greece or what happened in France a few years ago. My only criticism of protest like the one in Oakland is that they need to be better organized, regulated, and sustained.

No disrespect to anybody but this is the reality of the culture we live in.
 

raywaters11

Well-Known Member
#10
Man I hate when people think it's 'cause they're black that they're being held down.. That's so closed-minded and straight out of the fuckin' 60's. Get with the program, the next President is black. Black people aren't held down any more than anyone else.

The people that are held down, are poor people. If you're poor, you're not shit in America. Look at Obama, he is rich. He gets whatever he wants. Look at OJ Simpson, he got away with MURDER because he was rich. Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, Michael Vick, Michael Jordan, Ron Artest... These guys get away with whatever they do, or get light sentences, because they are rich. All of them are black. T.I. is a convicted felon, but gets a year of house arrest in his multi-million dollar mansion for buying machine guns. If I were a felon, and I got caught doing that, do you think I would be put on house arrest? Fuck no. My broke ass would be in prison.
50 Cent is on videotape snorting stuff off a table in his motel room, and he didn't get investigated for that at all. The rich people rule this country and it will stay that way. Money and power makes America. Cops have power, so they do whatever they want. Including shooting people in the head. Then people say he shot him because he was black, which may or not be true, but that was a personal reason for the cop. Society wasn't trying to hold this guy down, the PERSON was.

Nobody needs to bitch about injustice unless you're a Native American. They were the ones who got the shit end of the deal. White people don't rule shit, rich people do.
 

Kadafi Son

Well-Known Member
#11
Nobody needs to bitch about injustice unless you're a Native American. They were the ones who got the shit end of the deal. White people don't rule shit, rich people do.
Who did all that to the Native Americans and then who owns the majority of the wealth in this country? Then black fools you just name don't mean a damn. U ever heard of propaganda? Stop being closed minded
 

raywaters11

Well-Known Member
#12
Ohh so if black people had been the first ones to this country, Native Americans would still be in control? Lol, then you would just bitch that they had all the power.

I'm not the closed minded one, you are, kiddo. Those black people don't mean a damn? Well hmm... Since when does the President of the fuckin' country not mean a damn? Get some knowledge kid. It's 2009, race doesn't mean shit anymore.

It's all about money. Right now, you and I have about the same amount of power in society, I would imagine. But if you hit the lottery and became a millionaire, you would trump me because you're rich. But I guess if I did the same, it would be because I'm white? Please... Get with the times.

You seem like the type to be smoking pot in your grandma's basement, contemplating conspiracy theories as to why the next black guy will die. You probably agree with Snoop that the fires are a conspiracy.

People don't die because they are black or white anymore, people just die. They starve, or get killed for money. Because people are poor.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#13
I agree fully with ray's central point, in that rich people rule shit and fuck the poor people over. It's not about race (anymore).



But that's getting further off-topic. I don't think the thread starter tried to make a racial point in the first place.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#15
Case in point (maybe thin ice here):

When Katrina hit, the world was sort of in shock. To watch the richest country in the world handle this so poorly was an affront. However, when I saw Bush on site confronting the people, I'd make a guesstimate and say he genuinely cared. I mean, c'mon, sure he's been a poor president but his heart is not of stone. His fellow man suffered and he felt it too.

BUT. And this is the big but. Back in Washington plans were made for reconstruction, and it was said "go do it". But because the "duped" people in general were poor bastards, there was no real pressure behind it. There was no real national advantage in rebuilding that shit, help those people. So, consciously or not, it got pushed lower and lower down the agenda.

It's been years, they're still building and it's still a mess. FFS!


Anyway, my opinion.
 

Kadafi Son

Well-Known Member
#16
A lot of things I'm saying is going over a lot of people's head for some reason. I never mentioned race in the 1st place, and then somebody has the audacity to think I'm probably a weedhead in my grandma's basement thinkin' of conspiracies. LOL, i don't even know if that was stereotyping me or what, but I won't let it offend me because there are different and bigger issues at hand.

Poor people AND people of color are the ones dying and suffering the most because of the way society is workin' em. Am I lying. Its not the 60's anymore, but just because a policy changes does not mean that mindsets do to, and that's been proven with the recent shootings and even with Katrina. A lot more people could have been saved. When that tsunami happened on the other side of the planet years ago, america was there right away. The victims of Katrina are suffering til this day of something that could have been prevented. And yes, I know there were white people out there. No one is denying that. Even white people where out there protesting in Oakland. But I still I still have to point to the fact that the majority of the people suffering from these issues were black. It is a human issue and then it is a black issue. T

hey where referred to as the looters and the refugees whenever the news would address then. I remember the misrepresentation of the Black Panthers in the 60's and I saw it on the news in 2005 with Katrina. I saw it this week when the media decided to bring up Oscar Grant's criminal record on the news....and I'm like, what does that have to do with anything?! These people are always being shown in a bad light, no matter what.

Bring up Obama if you want. Even when those African countries were colonized over in Africa by the Europeons, they put a blackface in the head position, yet he was still a puppet of the dominators. So Obama can be president all he wants, blacks are still gonna be getting harassed by the police for no complete reason (which I experienced myself), they still go to schools that don't have enough books and dedicated/decent teachers, the property values will still rise in their neighborhoods which will eventually lead them to being poorer and poorer. Theres still issues with equality in housing (no matter how good your credit sometimes) and employment. I've experienced every single one of these issue and it is real. These are crimes here. I'm a community worker and I've actually seen the heartless ways these people devise their plans to continue on the suffering of these poor people (which are still overwhelmingly black). And I realized there are some poor/minority people who deserve jailtime, and we address those issue a lot. But whenever we try to address society's errors and crimes, where complaining. We're conspiracy theorist, even when the facts are right there.

Like I said, I'm not trying to hurt nobodys feelings. I've got respect for everybody and even cops if they're gonna do their jobs. But too many times, society gets away with murder and I/we have been wanting to see justice served when it easily could have been. Am I a racist or conspirisacy theorist for stating this? Was Pac one when he stated this, when he sang "They Don't Give A Fuck About Us"? I'm a social worker taking classes in college right now and I wanna eventually help these people out because they don't have voice right now. Let me know the error in my ways and what I've said, because I feel all I said was human and a flee for fairness like all good humans want.

Oscar didn't have to get shot. The gun didn't need to "accidently" get drawn in the first place. Now we have a dead man/father/son...I don't expect justice to be served because too many times in the places I came from, poor people and black people seldomly see it. But enough it enough, and I say this to everybody: think first
 

raywaters11

Well-Known Member
#17
Then what the fuck are we arguing about? I say it's poor people, you say it's black poor people. Damn if I said it was Christian people you would say "No, its black Christian people," you are obviously too set in your ways to see another person's point, so debating anything with you is a waste of hand energy that could be better used looking up pornography.

When I said that about being the pot smoking conspiracy theorist, I was passing judgment on your mind state being that of a paranoid person who believes conspiracies. No race was issued there. No stereotyping whatsoever, but that was the first thing you went to.

It's okay. I don't even blame you. I blame the generation that raised you and me. I was brought up in fuckin' Kentucky of all places. My parents' generation is that of the 1960's when blacks didn't have rights. When they actually were treated as the lesser race. So growing up, I was told "Blacks = Bad" but something in me was just like, wtf. Why? Thought neither of my parents are racist, I have a lot of relatives and older friends who are. That's their right to be racist, if they want to be ignorant culture hermits, so be it. I can't change them. They haven't changed after this long, they never will.
I am wasting way too much space so I will skip a little bit before I give Preach a run for longest poster, the older people around me told me blacks are bad. I pondered it, and refused to believe it. I imagine the older generation around you, told you "We are oppressed, we are struggling, we are treated bad." Which they were, once upon a time. Today, it's not the case. Those people won't grow out of their shell, but that doesn't mean you have to believe the same thing. Don't blame skin color for shortcomings, you have the same opportunity as any other person to make something of yourself. You're young, and obviously very smart. Pretty articulate when you want to be, too. Don't be another person who grows up to be nothing, and say it's because you are black and society shits on you.
Because when you are forty years old and still saying that, twenty or so years from now, you will look foolish. The nation is changing rapidly, you have to get with the times or get left behind. Make the money and get the power and be the change that you wish to see.

</cliche speech.>
 

Kadafi Son

Well-Known Member
#18
^^^
Appreciated your input. really. still though. Its not a fact of me believing race is still an issue. Its that I've experienced it behind closed doors and out in the open, so I personally can't say that it isn't entirely an issue today yet. Its not that I'm being narrow headed either, cuz I also believe anybody can do anything that they put their heart in, thru watever forms of faith they follow. But what I'm seeing everywhere is that different people believe different things for whatever reason. Some read it from a book, some is verbal, some is lived. But anyways, this doesn't need to get drawn out. I see where your comin' from and I hope you can feel where I'm comin' from
 

S O F I

Administrator
Staff member
#19
What Kadafi Son was trying to say and he wasn't clear enough, I'm hoping anyway, is that although ALL impoverished people in America are discriminated against, African-Americans are DISPROPORTIONATELY discriminated against. This is probably most recently evident in the fact that African-Americans accounted for a disproportionate share of subprime loans, the same loans that led to the subprime mortgage crisis, and the same loans that led to the current financial crisis. You can see for yourself here: NAACP Calls National 'Day of Action' Against Mortgage Discrimination
 

S. Fourteen

Well-Known Member
#20
^^ There was pressure from the government to raise home ownership in minorities and some would argue that this lead to lenders giving out loans to people who wouldn't have gotten a loan otherwise. It's not really the case of "big brother hates blacks", but most likely personal bias or prejudice or racism of the individual salesman, or lack of proper regulations and groups like ACORN are pushing for reform. As a borrower, you need to be smart about your borrowing practices, otherwise you get conned.
 

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