Some thoughts

Chronic

Well-Known Member
#1
I've had some thoughts the past week. It's not exactly a theory but I wonder if it has some merit. Bear with me, it's a bit of a rant.

Mainly I had been thinking about why we are intelligent and where morals fit into the picture. If I understand evolution and history correctly we're incredibly lucky to exist. Had the dinosaurs not gone extinct we wouldn't be here, had the flightless birds not lost their position at the top of the food chain we wouldn't be here etc. but it wasn't all luck. There is a design, although "blind", with a clear and singular objective. The level of intelligence we have reached is just another part of this design. The reason why we're the only species on earth that are, for the lack of a better word, intelligent is because the conditions need to be just right (and we killed the Neanderthals eheheh). Exactly the way it is with our planet, the conditions are just right to allow life. Dolphins and chimpanzees would be the most obvious candidates for new intelligent species, if circumstances allowed for it.

Think of convergent evolution. During a period in the world animals developed sabretooths. Most famously of course the big cats but also marsupials (family that holds kangaroos, opposums, koalas etc.). This for example was not a sabretoothed cat



So to use that as an analogy, we're just one of the species that was lucky enough to get a fancy set of teeth.

I saw an experiment with a chimpanzee where they attached a tube to the wall with at the bottom a nut. He couldn't get it out with his finger so he tried to find something else. He basically did nothing for 10 minutes, then he walked over to his water tray and transported the water to the tube using his mouth. After 2-3 times the nut was high enough in the tube to be grabbed. How many people would have figured this out in 10 minutes?

In another experiment they had a box with a nut inside. In order to get the nut they'd need to complete 3 steps (tap something, pull something, turn something). A person showed them how to do it and they successfully imitated it. Afterwards they used the same box, except this time it was see-through. This showed that the first 2 steps were completely useless (you're just tapping the box) and you only needed to turn something. The chimpanzees ignored the first two steps and got the nut in 1 step. They did the same experiment on kids. The kids would complete all 3 steps, even though the first 2 did absolutely nothing.

This obviously shows how intelligent chimps are but it also shows a child's readiness to be taught. And adults show a readiness to teach. These type of things contributed to our current position, not just intelligence. Some chimp tribes use tools. One chimp will have figured it out, others see it and imitate but they are unwilling to teach, so anything new they learn has a danger of being lost. They never manage to create collective knowledge, which is one of the foundations of our existence.

It seems like we got a package from nature along the way and our intelligence was only one of the things found inside (like the need to learn/teach). Everything in that package was necessary for the next step in evolution. There was a bigger design than simply an increase in intelligence. Part of our behavior can be attributed to our place in the primate family but perhaps we also a set amount of characteristics associated with that package alone. All members of the Great Ape family received this package but only we were lucky enough to benefit from it as much as we did, due to the right circumstances.

Because animals can't think like we do the term '(un)selfish' can't apply but for the sake of discussion every animal is selfish. Their relationships are either parasitic or mutualism, where both parties benefit, but there is never an unselfish act. Herds, packs etc. all benefit the members.

But how do you explain unselfishness in people? There are no niceties in nature, only survival. In the animal kingdom the adoptee is a parasite (the adopter receives no benefit and is actually helping to spread the genes of someone else). There is no wrong or right, there just is. Still every person has a gut feeling of what's right and wrong.

In a third experiment 2 chimps were placed in cages across from each other. In between the cages there was a tray with food which could be slided to either cage. Chimp A had a rope in its cage that would make the tray fall, meaning neither ape would get to eat. Chimp B had a rope that would pull the tray his way. In scenario 1 they placed the tray in front of Chimp A. As he was eating Chimp B pulled his rope and got the booty, which made Chimp A very angry and he pulled his rope, dropping the tray to the floor. In scenario 2 they again placed the tray in front of Chimp A only now a person took his tray away and slided it to Chimp B. This time Chimp A let Chimp B eat it as it understood that it was the person, an impartial third party, that caused it. It seems like they have some basic understanding of justice.

Animals are destructive but because of their limited intelligence they can never do much damage in the big picture. We have the power to destroy our earth and kill all life, which would go against nature's design. Everything in nature is in balance and we continously disturb the natural order of things. We've risen above nature. It doesn't make sense to me that nature's design would be so flawed.
So are morals really just a part of this package and did chimpanzees (and other Great Apes) receive it as well (only they didn't evolve far enough to use it)? If another species reached our level of intelligence would it show different sexual behavior etc. but still share our sense of morality?

If it is part of the package what would be its purpose? Perhaps it's a natural part of our evolution towards a fully conscious being as a way of counteracting our destructive nature. Or maybe part of nature's design is creating something that only has instincts for the most basic things (sex, food, shelter) but uses its intelligence and morals to accomplish the rest. Morality is simply the next phase of evolution. Would our purpose be to protect life? Does nature want to create a conscious guide for life as a whole?

This also leads me to some other questions. Can an animal reach evolutionary perfection? Would there be a point where a species is completely done? Is our current being merely a transition between one level of animals (which would include all animals except us) and another level (one which has not been reached .. at least on our planet)? Will we shed our sadistic nature and will our "selfish instinct" eventually diminish or completely vanish?

PS: Reading this makes me think it's far too long, incoherent and basically inarticulate so my apologies if you read it and it doesn't make sense ehehehe.
 

Preach

Well-Known Member
#2
Too late right now to take the time to respond to all of it, but it's funny you should mention what you did about humans' capability to destroy the Earth and nature. I've thought about and around the notion that whatever's driving the human race to "destroy everything" is a part of this greater balance as well, maybe. In the end, we've become accustomed to using tools. Our tools greatly surpass our ability to rejuvenate whatever damage they do. This is an imbalance that nature will have to deal with. Imo it's as feasible that we're created to nurture and guide life, as it is that we're created to destroy it. Let's assume biological life in any form can only develop so far before the complexity of the lifeform(s) make it inevitable that they destroy themselves. This is a theory I strongly believe in. Throughout human times, cultures have existed and then vanished. I think the same is true for humans as a race.

Polar bears are a good example. They have developed through long years to be the prime killers in arctic environments. They can live in the harshest conditions for months and they are still able to find food and such. Their color and behavior make them stand out to me, much like sharks, crocodiles, and several other creatures. However, they are an endangered species right now. They developed so far that in the end their skill sets were too "specialized" to work in different habitats, or to overcome new obstacles that they previously haven't had to deal with. This is what I meant about only being able to develop so far. Maybe humans will one day be weak little implings with great intellect that are swiped away by a "simple" principle of nature like an ice age. We'll be so accustomed to using tools that once nature changes up on us, we're too specialized to deal with it. We simply die out like any other species of animals. This does not mean the end of evolution, or of life, though, which leads me to believe we're not really that important.

Also, about the package thing and perfect design. I think you're onto something, I have several thoughts on the subject, just too tired to be able to think straight right now. But hey, here's an idea. What if we send a bunch of inbred babies from the same family to an island and have them breed with eachother, rinse and repeat for a few lifetimes. I'm sure we would end up with some sort of new strain of human.
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
#3
Everybody should read Chronic's post, it really blew my mind. It covers science, history, religion, Pyramids, aliens, etc etc, and explains a lot of it.
 

Euphanasia

Well-Known Member
#4
Chronic, what you said is very intriguing and you raised some really good points. This subject really interests me and I've been reading up on it a little bit lately.

I recently heard of a theory called "exaptation," which is how many people believe we became so intelligent. The theory is best used in the example of a bird's feathers. The feathers were once used primarily for insulation but as time went on, they became integral for flight. Some believe that the framework of our brains evolved in much the same way and the parts that eventually allowed for speech were merely used to aid respiration long ago.

Anyway, I'll have more comments but I have to get to work.
 

Da_Funk

Well-Known Member
#5
Great post.

I think humans developed a "higher" intelligence out of necessity. Our pelts are useless, our eyesight isn't that great, were not fast, our hearing isn't very good, and we have a terrible sense of smell. What does that leave us with? Our mind. It was either figure out a way to survive or be eliminated. Because of the need to survive we developed things such as tools, clothing, speech, etc. Once this train is set in motion there is no stopping it.

I'd also like to add that humans couldn't actually destroy our earth. At most we could blow a few km outta the crust, destroying the majority of life on the surface.
 

Preach

Well-Known Member
#6
I'd also like to add that humans couldn't actually destroy our earth. At most we could blow a few km outta the crust, destroying the majority of life on the surface.
Let's say we spew toxic gas into the air, vanish the ozone layer, chop down all the rain forests and hunt down any animal we can find in this post-apocalypse world in a need for food. I think this is more the scenario talked about. Not literally taking the planet out of existance, but nearly destroying carbon-based life, and "resetting" everything.
 

Da_Funk

Well-Known Member
#7
Let's say we spew toxic gas into the air, vanish the ozone layer, chop down all the rain forests and hunt down any animal we can find in this post-apocalypse world in a need for food. I think this is more the scenario talked about. Not literally taking the planet out of existance, but nearly destroying carbon-based life, and "resetting" everything.
Hence the reason I said destroying the majority of life on the surface :D
 

Glockmatic

Well-Known Member
#8
This also leads me to some other questions. Can an animal reach evolutionary perfection? Would there be a point where a species is completely done?
It is impossible to obtain perfection through evolution since evolution happens by mistakes in dna which happens every time we reproduce. All living beings have relics of their past which sort of hinder them. Us humans have eyes that were developed backwards (the blood vessels block some of our vision), our skeletal structure is horrible for standing, walking is basically tripping and regaining our balance, the human pelvis is too small for babies to go through normally so they have to twist and turn to be able to come out. All of this and some people think that humans are the perfect beings on earth. Hardly.
 
#9
Humans have more of a higher level brain function over animals. Maybe it has something to do with diet ...

Humans are on top of the food chain, so we can eat whatever we want, from wherever. Animals can only eat what surrounds their environment, or what is fed to them. For example, Lions and tigers don't eat fish, they eat flesh. Monkeys eat fruit and nuts. Humans eat every (with emphasis) type of food. Seafood is good for the human brain, omega 3 has been linked to improved intellect. The statement 'you are what you eat' is very true in this sense. Different nutrients benefit different parts of our biology, and animals are restricted in their diet. We are not, as humans.
 

Glockmatic

Well-Known Member
#12
is the human body more adept at processing such nutrients though, ask yourself, do we have the perfect genome among living things?
No, no we don't. We only process it better because we learned that cooking food makes it easier to extract the nutrients in digestion. Our stomachs are no different than other omnivores.

Our genome is far from perfect, our bodies haven't perfected the art of standing. We still have back problems from the stress of standing and our knees have complications from it. Walking is a serious of tripping and catching yourself afterwards basically.
 
#13
No, no we don't. We only process it better because we learned that cooking food makes it easier to extract the nutrients in digestion. Our stomachs are no different than other omnivores.

Do you propose that if animals ate proper cooked food like us their biology would improve along with intelligence? eating raw food must give the body more work to do, though cooking food does deplete nutrients
 

Glockmatic

Well-Known Member
#14
I think it would take many many many generations to see a difference in intelligence. The thing is that no other animal in the world has come close to mastering fire as we have so there is no natural way of seeing if it would work.

Also, there was an article posted today about how chimps preferred cooked food over raw food except for apples and white potatoes which they had no preference for.

Here's the article. Chimps Prefer Cooked Food - Yahoo! News
 
#15
haha I just had a funny thought, imagine monkeys or some other animal with a secret conspiracy to overthrow humans lol. you never know, we humans have mastered fire, monkeys might master biological weapons, a disease to which monkeys are immune. Them monkeys are smart motherfuckerz, they like to swing
 

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