My thread of "Propaganda"

Pittsey

Knock, Knock...
Staff member
#1
My propaganda thread.... Or is it?!?!?!

A breakdown of American debt to other countries -

http://ryankett.hubpages.com/hub/The-American-National-Debt-Who-Do-American-Owe

The American National Debt : To Who Does American Owe Money?




The American National Debt is growing faster than the debt of any other world nation, it currently owes in excess of $2.7 trillion to foreign governments and other private investors. The debt equates to around 20% of the countries total GDP. This quick hub will give you the low down on who America owes and how much money they owe them, you should perhaps bear in mind that interest payments will make the true figure much higher - so who is profiting from America's overspending? Lets take a look.....




See all 5 photos

1. Japan - $585.9bn

You think that your mortgage is big? Try telling that to the Japanese government, who are owed an astonishing $585.9bn by the American government
- a sum which is difficult for any of us to even comprehend. Based on a rough American population estimate of 313 million people, this equates to $1,871 per American citizen. I find it quite frankly astonishing that America's biggest creditor is a country with whom it was at war just half way through the 21st Century.


2. China - $541.0bn

Close behind Japan in the list of creditors is China who are owed some $541bn by America. That is another $1,728 that each American citizen owes to Asia. To think that America owes so much money to a country that it imports so much from is quite frankly economic suicide; Americans are purchasing many of their consumer goods from China, only for China to lend their money back to America and charge them interest on it. That's like buying a new sofa for $1000, then having the shop lend you back your $1000 but charge you.... say 10% APR on your own cash. Debt is power, and China certainly has a lot of power over America, it is believed that Chinese funding was used to meet the significant costs of the Iraq war. Taking over a country to topple one man that posed no direct threat to world safety was certainly an expensive exercise.


3. United Kingdom - $307.4bn

To be honest, this one surprised me greatly; particularly as the British have racked up significant national debts themselves. I wouldn't be surprised to see the UK calling in this debt in order to pay its own creditors, but this is still a sour debt for American people. America flourished after the first World War because of the huge UK debts that itself owned. It appears that the tables have turned however, and each American citizen now owes the UK $982. Since the population of the UK is about one-fifth of the size of the USA's, I will take a total of $4,910 from five of you please (paypal or cheques accepted).


4. OPEC Nations - $179.8bn

The OPEC Nations, this stands for the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting countries are basically Algeria, Angola, Ecuador, Indonesia, Iran, Iraq, Kuwait, Libya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, U.A.E. and Venezuela. I don't really understand this one, but I do find it rather amusing that the Americans owe Iraq money - having pretty much chosen to blow the place to bits, I suppose it is only fair that they pay the costs of damages. If your kid smashes your neighbours window whilst playing baseball, then you have to pay for the window, same rule applies to global politics it seems. To owe money to Angola, one of the developed world's poorest countries, seems ludicrous. I doubt that America could sink too much further.


5. Caribbean Banking - $147.7bn

America also owes $147.7bn to the Caribbean Banking centres. This debt is basically owed to Bahamas, Bermuda, Cayman Islands, Netherlands Antilles, Panama, and British Virgin Islands. To think that the USA owes so much cash to places with.... well, hardly any money themselves, is perhaps testimony to how low the country has sunk. The good news is that Obama intends to reduce America's debt, so hopefully Americans will no longer face the embarrassment of owing money to a bunch of tiny islands.
 

S O F I

Administrator
Staff member
#4
It's OK to be indebted. It's how capitalism works.

The key thing is if the financial markets believe in your ability to repay those debts. They still do, but right now, there are some minor concerns, such as some ratings agencies threatening to cut down our debt rating if spending isn't reined in. So, a couple of things will have to happen.

1. Taxes in the US will have to go up + tax reform
2. Health care spending and entitlement programs will have to be reined in

For starters.

It's not the end of the world. However, the issue is, with our political system, it's hard to make those necessary choices. You can see that with this debt-ceiling raising fuckery that has nothing to do with...the debt ceiling but everything with political posturing.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#5
1. Taxes in the US will have to go up + tax reform
2. Health care spending and entitlement programs will have to be reined in
Well, most examples show that raising taxes usually doesn't significantly slow down the debt counter. Huge, drastic changes are needed, a whole new spending system to start with, and still it wouldn't guarantee to slow down the debt to a reasonable level.
These would be changes that most people wouldn't like, crippling the economy further.

Most people don't treat the problem seriously enough, while it is serious. Sure it's normal until there's no way to pay up the debt. At that point the country is totally fucked though and America is headed that way at the moment. A lot of countries are, because it's 'normal'.

Sell Hawaii to the Japanese, Alaska to the Chinese and it'll cover a part of your debt, yay.
 

S O F I

Administrator
Staff member
#6
What examples?

Also, you have to understand, there are not too many options in these situations. You either raise taxes, cut spending, or a combination of both. Hyperinflation is not a credible option, obviously.

and what does whole new spending system mean exactly? In the post you quoted, I mentioned programs that need reform.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#7
What examples?

Also, you have to understand, there are not too many options in these situations. You either raise taxes, cut spending, or a combination of both. Hyperinflation is not a credible option, obviously.

and what does whole new spending system mean exactly? In the post you quoted, I mentioned programs that need reform.
The closest example would be Poland, and it went without any protests because people were occupied with other silly issues at that time. Vat went from 22% to 23% on most products and services and with many others where it was 7% it's now 23%. Our national debt is still raising at a similar speed despite the fact that apparently we did not increase public spendings. And our economy has been doing relatively good compared to most other European countries over the past few years.

Raising taxes by a high amount might kill the economy. I'm not sure about American mentality but here you'd have epic riots which would make the debt skyrocket possibly making the country go bust.

yeah so what I've meant is huge reforms, not only cutting wasteful spendings. Saving on everything, because the debt is simply growing too fast and it's huge already. I'm not familiar enough with American government spendings and public services but they'd have to be reduced to minimum. Whichever party comes with that idea will be hated by your fellow citizens, because an average Joe doesn't understand Macroeconomics and doesn't understand that the country is in a pretty poor condition, in need of huge reforms to change that. Reforms that will have to hurt him in some way.
 

FroDawgg

Well-Known Member
#8
Here's my idea. It's simple. There are enough multi-millionaires in this country (the US) to pay off the debt, if they all donated a million dollars. What needs to happen is a respected multi-millionaire celebrity--someone like Tom Hanks--take charge, donate money, and encourage all his rich friends to do the same and to encourage their rich friends, and so forth. Only the willing, not those who feel that they are owed something thereafter, should partake.

I know this is idealism and wishful thinking, but it's my ideal and wishful thought, so that should count for something, right?
 

Sebastian

Well-Known Member
#9
Here's my idea. It's simple. There are enough multi-millionaires in this country (the US) to pay off the debt, if they all donated a million dollars. What needs to happen is a respected multi-millionaire celebrity--someone like Tom Hanks--take charge, donate money, and encourage all his rich friends to do the same and to encourage their rich friends, and so forth. Only the willing, not those who feel that they are owed something thereafter, should partake.

I know this is idealism and wishful thinking, but it's my ideal and wishful thought, so that should count for something, right?
I doubt there are about 14 million multi-millionaires in the US.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#10
Here's my idea. It's simple. There are enough multi-millionaires in this country (the US) to pay off the debt, if they all donated a million dollars. What needs to happen is a respected multi-millionaire celebrity--someone like Tom Hanks--take charge, donate money, and encourage all his rich friends to do the same and to encourage their rich friends, and so forth. Only the willing, not those who feel that they are owed something thereafter, should partake.

I know this is idealism and wishful thinking, but it's my ideal and wishful thought, so that should count for something, right?
That would be probably equal to paying off next hour's debt in an optimistic version, since the debt grows by about 2,5million/minute. So you'd need 150 multimillionaire friends of Tom Hanks to pay up that said hour.
Also, there are probably no multimillionaires with a million dollar in savings, but net worth. You'd have to encourage them to sell their homes, cars, whores from Thailand etc.
Plus they would slow down the economy by not spending the money elsewhere.

Every tax payer in America would have to pay over 176,000$ at once to pay off all debts to give you a better perspective. This also includes children, elders and others who are not subject to income taxes.
To put it in an even better perspective that's 100 times more than total family savings of an average American family. By spending all of private savings of all American citizens (yes, including multimillionaires, Steve Jobs and Bill Gates too, all of everyone's money) you'd be able to pay up about half of the money that you owe to the Chinese alone.
Oh and then everyone will have to pay up a dozen bucks every day to prevent the debt from increasing. I assume that raising income taxes by about 70% would do.
 

S O F I

Administrator
Staff member
#11
The closest example would be Poland, and it went without any protests because people were occupied with other silly issues at that time. Vat went from 22% to 23% on most products and services and with many others where it was 7% it's now 23%. Our national debt is still raising at a similar speed despite the fact that apparently we did not increase public spendings. And our economy has been doing relatively good compared to most other European countries over the past few years.

Raising taxes by a high amount might kill the economy. I'm not sure about American mentality but here you'd have epic riots which would make the debt skyrocket possibly making the country go bust.

yeah so what I've meant is huge reforms, not only cutting wasteful spendings. Saving on everything, because the debt is simply growing too fast and it's huge already. I'm not familiar enough with American government spendings and public services but they'd have to be reduced to minimum. Whichever party comes with that idea will be hated by your fellow citizens, because an average Joe doesn't understand Macroeconomics and doesn't understand that the country is in a pretty poor condition, in need of huge reforms to change that. Reforms that will have to hurt him in some way.
There's not much logic in the notion that debt keeps increasing while public spending isn't unless your costs of borrowing skyrocketed, which is not the case. I think I'm going to assume that's a lie and the Warsaw Business Journal would agree with me. http://www.wbj.pl/article-54327-polands-public-spending-to-gdp-ratio-increases.html

"While most European countries are cleaning up after the crisis and fixing their finances, the Polish state is still pumping money into the economy."

"Michał Dybuła said the fact that Poland's public deficit is growing in relation to GDP is due in part to expenses tied to infrastructure investments. He added, however, that consumption and bureaucracy are also to blame."
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#12
Well, they increased by 0.8 percentage points IN 2010 and the tax increased by at least 1 percentage point THIS YEAR.
Look here: http://article.wn.com/view/2011/01/07/Polish_public_debt_to_GDP_ratio_may_fall_in_2011finmin/
The debt increases at a similar speed though.

This is in Polish but explains a reform from January 2011 which forced reduced public spendings:
http://www.biuletynbudzetowy.pl/_assets/biuletynbudzetowy/Klasyfikacja_budzetowa.pdf

And this is our debt counter:
http://www.dlug.koliber.org/

The key point is that people are trying to avoid taxes more now. That and the fact that higher taxes tend to slow down the economy and lower living standards amongst other things.
 

S O F I

Administrator
Staff member
#13
The key point is that you can't have a credible budget deficit and debt reduction plan without raising taxes on some level. Of course, cutting spending is a must. It's not about what the people want, it's about what has to be done. It's not a mystery that high tax hikes can have a negative impact on the economy, mainly on job growth (small business gets hurt) and private investment.

But you went and pulled a 180 from your original point lol. If the public debt to GDP ratio may fall in 2011, how is that not, to some extent, proving my point and disproving yours? :D
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#14
The key point is that you can't have a credible budget deficit and debt reduction plan without raising taxes on some level. Of course, cutting spending is a must. It's not about what the people want, it's about what has to be done. It's not a mystery that high tax hikes can have a negative impact on the economy, mainly on job growth (small business gets hurt) and private investment.

But you went and pulled a 180 from your original point lol. If the public debt to GDP ratio may fall in 2011, how is that not, to some extent, proving my point and disproving yours? :D
Well, I posted what was supposed to happen, and then wanted to prove that this doesn't happen even though everything was supposed to be great and awesome :p I edited my post a bit.

The debt grows at a similar pace despite having increased taxes and lowering public spendings. Just didn't work, against all theories.
 

Pittsey

Knock, Knock...
Staff member
#15
America could quite easily handle it's debt. But like SOFI says the way the country is run is far too complicated. And a lot of Americans get angry when tax is mentioned. Some might think America have had it a bit easy for too long. But there are plenty of areas where spending could be cut.

But....

To the masses... 14 Trillion sounds ridiculous.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#16
Right now it's like a person loaning 1000$ every month pretending that his salary is higher because he needs it for the way he lives. So he has to buy a new car, invest, buy a new yacht etc and for all those years America could laugh at its neighbors because their stuff was cooler. Well, at some point he'll have to give it back and the fact that it'd cripple the pretended balance doesn't justify not trying to fix the issue. The debt is not just a virtual being.

They could fix that but that would mean lowering the living conditions and crippling the economy, people would be unbelievably pissed, blaming the government that would basically commit a political suicide by doing that etc etc. People don't understand.
Actually I can see two extremes - people who underestimate the issue and those who overestimate it. In reality it's a very serious issue, but the country is not going bankrupt (yet) because they're able to pay the debt. However the fact that they'd be able to do so doesn't change much since doing anything would piss people off, and not doing anything is safer for any politician, but they're letting the debt raise even higher. A shitty situation indeed.
I know that it's an American sport to pay with money you don't have, and the way they teach finances/economy/accounting there it's also considered to be normal, but it's not.
 

S O F I

Administrator
Staff member
#18
I know that it's an American sport to pay with money you don't have, and the way they teach finances/economy/accounting there it's also considered to be normal, but it's not.
Unless you live in North Korea, that's how finance/accounting is taught. You finance your growth by issuing debt or equity.

I don't know what they teach in North Korea, but I figure most people major in famine.
 

FroDawgg

Well-Known Member
#19
I doubt there are about 14 million multi-millionaires in the US.
You're right...either I initially read the number wrong, or I miscalculated. According to http://blogs.wsj.com/wealth/2011/06/22/u-s-has-record-number-of-millionaires/, there are 3.1 millionaires (I'm not sure how many are MULTI), and that comes up short. My bad.

And I know it wouldn't be as simple as I proposed, but I can dream, right?

Oh, forget 150 friends; I'm pretty sure Tom Hanks has 150 million friends. Because he rocks.
 

Pittsey

Knock, Knock...
Staff member
#20
Unless you live in North Korea, that's how finance/accounting is taught. You finance your growth by issuing debt or equity.

I don't know what they teach in North Korea, but I figure most people major in famine.
They major in obedience.
 

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