Former Muslim turned Atheist explains the problem perfectly.

[Casey]

LOS ANGELES — Three weeks ago, Dr. Wafa Sultan was a largely unknown Syrian-American psychiatrist living outside Los Angeles, nursing a deep anger and despair about her fellow Muslims.

Today, thanks to an unusually blunt and provocative interview on Al Jazeera television on Feb. 21, she is an international sensation, hailed as a fresh voice of reason by some, and by others as a heretic and infidel who deserves to die.

In the interview, which has been viewed on the Internet more than a million times and has reached the e-mail of hundreds of thousands around the world, Dr. Sultan bitterly criticized the Muslim clerics, holy warriors and political leaders who she believes have distorted the teachings of Muhammad and the Koran for 14 centuries.

She said the world's Muslims, whom she compares unfavorably with the Jews, have descended into a vortex of self-pity and violence.

"The clash we are witnessing around the world is not a clash of religions or a clash of civilizations. It is a clash between two opposites, between two eras. It is a clash between a mentality that belongs to the Middle Ages & another mentality that belongs to the 21st century. It is a clash between civilization & backwardness, between the civilized & the primitive, between barbarity & rationality. It is a clash between freedom & oppression, between democracy & dictatorship. It is a clash between human rights on the one hand & the violation of these rights on the other hand. It is a clash between those who treat women like beasts & those who treat them like human beings.

I have reached the point that doesn't allow any U-turn. I have no choice. I am questioning every single teaching of our holy book.

The Jews have come from the [Holocaust] & forced the world to respect them, with their knowledge, not with their terror, with their work, not their crying & yelling. Humanity owes most of the discoveries & science of the 19th and 20th centuries to Jewish scientists...We have not seen a single Jew blow himself up in a German restaurant. We have not seen a single Jew destroy a church. We have not seen a single Jew protest by killing people...Only the Muslims defend their beliefs by burning down churches, killing people & destroying embassies. This path will not yield any results. The Muslims must ask themselves what they can do for humankind before they demand that humankind respect them.

Our people are hostages to our own beliefs & teachings.

When the Muslims divided the people into Muslims and non-Muslims & called to fight the others until they believe what they themselves believe, they started this clash & began this war.

Brother, you can believe in stones, as long as you don't throw them at me. You are free to worship whoever you want, but other people's beliefs are not your concern, whether they believe that the Messiah is God, son of Mary, or that Satan is God, son of Mary. Let people have their beliefs.

I am not a Christian, a Muslim, or a Jew. I am a secular human being. I do not believe in the supernatural, but I respect others' right to believe in it."

 

[Casey]

This one's also worth watching.

 

[Rukas]

Perfect.

When the Muslims divided the people into Muslims and non-Muslims & called to fight the others until they believe what they themselves believe, they started this clash & began this war.

That is exactly what I was trying to say when Jurhum kept saying that people are "Islam bashing."

 

[Rukas]

Interesting, Ive never seen these videos before.

This one's also worth watching.

When I examined the Koran, the hadiths, and the Islamic books under my microscope, I came to the absolute conviction that it is impossible - imposible! - for any human being to read the biography of Muhammad and believe in it, and yet emerge a psychologically and mentally healthy person.

Do you remember the way that (the Prophet Muhammad) killed 'Asmaa bint Marwan? His followers tore her body apart limb from limb, while she was breastfeeding her child. When they returned to him shouting "Allah Akbar" he said "No two goats would lock horns over her." As you know, goats lock horns over the most inconsequential thing. For Muhammad, however, the killing of a woman while breastfeeding was too trivial an incident for goats "to lock horns over."

Is this a prophet of God?

So Muslims believe that God sent Jesus, a Prophet, and THEN set Muhammad, also a Prophet to "finish" the work somehow?

So God sent Jesus who was AGAINST violence and murder and never harmed anyone and his whole Gospel is based on "love thy neighbor" and "treat others as you would like to be treated" and "turn the other cheek and forgive," etc etc, and then sent Muhammad to teach and do the exact opposite? Or am I missing something?

 

[Rukas]

Dude, that second video is hands down the most enlightened video, speech, whatever whatever, I have been exposed to in a long time. 100x Thank yous for bringing it to my attention.

 

[Casey]

No problem.

Her words are definitely enlightening.

What's good is that she knows the religion better than probably most of it's believers and so she can attack any of their ridiculous points and claims with numerous examples of their irrationality, violence, illogical decisions, bigotry, lies, hypocrisy and hatred.

And of course, she's quite clearly an educated, free, intelligent woman which has got to piss off some of those fundamentalists even more

When you read and hear the testimony of people like her, and people who have escaped from other religions, and cults, etc, that's when you really see the truth of how it is from a balanced perspective.

 

[Preach]

This truly is very interesting, and reflects my kind of thinking. I did some digging as I wanted to watch the whole thing. The guy she's talking to does respond, and curiously, he brings up some interesting points as well.

I guess it is noteworthy that this woman is a Muslim-turned-Atheist. Like any type of conditioning, the type she speaks of where negative language encourages negativity, having taken that particular journey gives you a certain perspective. I'm not at all refuting what she is saying, I believe she is a Muslim who finally got it. That doesn't just mean that every Muslim is magically just gonna be like "oh, okay", and stop hating the West.

The guy that counters her is a faithful Muslim but one who seems somewhat modernized in his understanding of the world and philosophy. I guess his point of view can be used to dissect the problem many Muslims have with this woman's way of thinking, which is highly westernized. The Middle East hasn't been westernized like she has.

Anyway, for people looking for more insight into the two sides of the conflict, I thought this was interesting enough to watch:

He brings up how most of the continents are uniting. The EU is uniting, the United States have been united for quite some time, coalitions and unions are forming in South Asia and South America as well, while large parts of the Middle East are under western control. He implied that the western politicians want to keep it that way so each one of them will be easier to bite and chew. It's an interesting viewpoint, and even if he's totally wrong, I'm sure it reflects the suspicions of many.

Let's face it, after 9/11 there were many ignorant Americans ready to kill some Muslims. And that happened. They responded back. There is no cultural, moral or scientific difference between all the moronic Americans that wanted to kill Muslims, and all the Muslims who want to kill the infidel dog. Ignorance and manipulation. In that sense, what she is saying also applies to the West and Western culture. Due to whatever made it that way, the Middle East is now the "lamb" that the guy in the video talks about, trying to have a conversation with the "wolf". As a proud people they will refute this like Dr. Sultan refutes the Islamic barbaric ways. They don't see themselves as angry, they see themselves as oppressed, so until we leave them be, they will never cease to be angry, because the anger is a side-effect of the oppressed feeling. It's a very basic human function and we usually refer to it as "pride".

I will re-iterate an analogy I have used before. When you want someone to quit smoking, direct confrontations, flushing down their cigarettes, and constantly nagging about it will not lead to anything positive. You can compare those intrusions with the western intrusions in the Middle East. Just like such intrusions with divert a smoker from potentially coming to the point where the person feels like quitting on their own initiative, our intrusions in the Middle East the last century has probably in some way diverted their ability to evolve in a positive direction as a people, because they have been given too many reasons to be negative.

In all these debates from the recent week I've been advocating both sides because I do not think it is as simple as Muslims being barbaric and angry. You can call them that, but it's a simplified definition of a much bigger problem.

That is aside from what she says about the biographical teachings of Muhammed. She criticized those but she also critisized the people of the Middle East, and Islam as a religion. I agree with her on the first part, but I'm not 100% sure about the other two. More like 80-90% but I reserve a last 10-20 there because of what I've just said.

 

[Rukas]

This truly is very interesting, and reflects my kind of thinking. I did some digging as I wanted to watch the whole thing. The guy she's talking to does respond, and curiously, he brings up some interesting points as well.

I guess it is noteworthy that this woman is a Muslim-turned-Atheist. Like any type of conditioning, the type she speaks of where negative language encourages negativity, having taken that particular journey gives you a certain perspective. I'm not at all refuting what she is saying, I believe she is a Muslim who finally got it. That doesn't just mean that every Muslim is magically just gonna be like "oh, okay", and stop hating the West.

The guy that counters her is a faithful Muslim but one who seems somewhat modernized in his understanding of the world and philosophy. I guess his point of view can be used to dissect the problem many Muslims have with this woman's way of thinking, which is highly westernized. The Middle East hasn't been westernized like she has.

Anyway, for people looking for more insight into the two sides of the conflict, I thought this was interesting enough to watch:

The guy talking is saying the same shit though, he is defending everything that Islam does based on the actions of George Bush, and even then what he is saying is opinion. He said Bush flew the planes into the towers and Bush used everything in his "nuclear arsenal" against the Middle East. When did the US drop nukes on the Middle East? He's also saying that the US wiped a nation off the map. Last time I checked Afghanistan and Iraq are still there.

I see this women standing against Islam's treatment of Women and humans in general, the acceptance of murder, rape, etc etc, and all this man can say to "refute" what she is saying is tell us about George Bush. What about before and after the Bush family? So now that Bush is out of office will Islam stop the abuse of women for example? Did they only do these things because Bush was in power in the first place?

Oh wow... Now he is talking about "Extreme Zionist Christianity..." Give me a break. And now a "peaceful Nuclear program" in Iran. LOL.

 

[Preach]

The guy talking is saying the same shit though, he is defending everything that Islam does based on the actions of George Bush, and even then what he is saying is opinion. He said Bush flew the planes into the towers and Bush used everything in his "nuclear arsenal" against the Middle East. When did the US drop nukes on the Middle East? He's also saying that the US wiped a nation off the map. Last time I checked Afghanistan and Iraq are still there.

Oh yeah. There's a lot of rambling. I'm not saying he's right, or that all his details check out, I'm saying: Look at his emotion. This person believes what he is saying. You can't turn him with words. He wants everyone out of the Middle East. There is one thing we can do to please the Muslims. We can leave. They want it. It's us that won't leave because it's too much of a benefit for us. It's a political game, and while the beating of women is not okay, neither is the oppression. I agree with Dr. Sultan, I just think that she defines the problem perfectly. She offers no real solution though, and as such, you can compare what she is doing with what the guys at South Park were doing. I generally liked the speech though. The fact that I am critical of what she's saying is the same reason I'm critical of anything. Just trying to not get sold too much on one argument or one side of a discussion just because I agree with it (or parts of it), and then close my eyes to any other arguments of validity.

I see this women standing against Islam's treatment of Women and humans in general, the acceptance of murder, rape, etc etc, and all this man can say to "refute" what she is saying is tell us about George Bush. What about before and after the Bush family? So now that Bush is out of office will Islam stop the abuse of women for example? Did they only do these things because Bush was in power in the first place?

Probably not, I edited my post a couple of times and changed my wording a little to make some of my points clearer so maybe you responded to the unedited post, but I mentioned something about how our intrusions will not stop the wife beating either, unless we kill every single Muslim male or take over their countries completely and send like a million cops down there to stand at every corner to listen for screams and cries. She is, right, the wife beating is bad. That sentence does not offer a solution to the problem, it simply states what we all have thought and agreed upon for a long time.

Oh wow... Now he is talking about "Extreme Zionist Christianity..." Give me a break. And now a "peaceful Nuclear program" in Iran. LOL.

Yeah lol, I laughed a bit at that too.

With respects to the Nuclear program, I'm gonna say something that I don't necessarily even buy myself lol, but let's assume that that is actually what he believes, and that this is one of those "good" muslims that doesn't actually beat his wife, but who doesn't take kindly to the western oppression and the criticism of the Middle East and Islam. He didn't really say anything about the wife beating so let's assume he either agreed or that he felt very targeted and went in a self-defense position lol.

 

[Rukas]

The whole "we want them out of our land" excuse falls on mute ears here. If you go up to any Muslims and say you want them out of your country you will be labeled a racist, and as Jurhum loves to point out time and time again, probably beat up. Islam expects us to welcome them into every country, bend our culture and law to their whims, and yet they want us to support them kicking everyone out of their lands?

And how does Islam think they should get Jewish women out of their land? By raping them of course!

 

[Preach]

The whole "we want them out of our land" excuse falls on mute ears here. If you go up to any Muslims and say you want them out of your country you will be labeled a racist, and as Jurhum loves to point out time and time again, probably beat up.

I don't think the argument revolves around physically removing every non-Muslim from the Middle East. By "out of our land" I think we're talking more about the political influence and all the soldiers. Which I perfectly understand. None of us live in a country where another country's soldiers are stationed in the streets. It's difficult for us to grasp, but I can very well understand why they dislike that feeling, and why it encourages hatred.

Islam expects us to welcome them into every country, bend our culture and law to their whims, and yet they want us to support them kicking everyone out of their lands?

"Islam" is a thought up entity in this context, and has never expected anything. Some Muslims immigrate to our countries, and just like our own people will take advantage of the support systems available to them due to their very nature, so will the Muslims. This is a political problem within the respective countries that have those problems, and has nothing to do with the debate on whether Islam is a "good" religion, or whether it is okay to beat your wife. How those countries choose to deal with those problems doesn't really concern the discussion at hand either.

Let's separate between Muslim leaders/speakers, Muslim ideals, and individual Muslims that emigrated. While I don't generally expect a random person on the street to have the wisdom and diplomacy required to lead a nation of people. I do expect it from the people that actually do. The problem of wife beating and living by social rules that were practiced hundreds of years ago is a problem that the leaders in those countries will have to deal with. They can't when their time is occupied with dealing with the West, who are there, with soldiers, milking their oil, meddling with their politics, and so forth. For an improvement to happen in the Middle East, the first natural step I see is to address their concern about feeling oppressed. As long as we have soldiers there we can't really shrug that concern off, because we are, in fact, intruding.

Then you have the Muslim ideals. Those can not possible change over night. A lot of them are fucked, but a cornered dog will not relax and take it's time to think about life and morals. I do not support many of the Islamic ways, and we can talk about them, but so long as we have soldiers stationed there, it is hypocritical to criticism their violence. "We" entered Afghanistan because of the actions of a terrorist group. Granted, the Taliban regime would not extradite them, and they were bad bad people. Doesn't mean that American soldiers didn't accidentally bomb a couple of schools and hospitals because some individual soldiers were retarded and incompetent. Then "we" entered Iraq because Saddam had so many dangerous weapons that we never found, and because he had killed a whole lot of people. So we thwart him, but hey, there's oil here. Let's chill out and "rebuild their society by western standards" under the guise that we are helping them, while we control this strategically and financially very important region.

You may not have endorsed the way, but the same way we are quick to generalize and use the word "they", so are the Muslims. This is in our very nature and in the end it is about being the bigger human being and showing understanding, and acting based on reason, not out of anger because you wanna smash the faces of those that beat their women. Confronting them and telling them they are assholes is not a reasonable way to get them to stop. They will feel compelled to justify their actions, and once they are justified, you can be DAMN sure they will continue. Muslims as a whole have to learn compassion and when they do, beating wives will cease to happen. But they cannot learn compassion when our soldiers occupy their land and sow hatred.

Then you have the individual Muslim. Most of them are alright. You say they come to our lands and demand. They do not necessarily endorse the actions of their religious leaders, nor do they necessarily live their life according to Muhammad. The same way you didn't necessarily endorse the "war on terror". The fact is, they assume you do, and you assume they are the same as all the bad Muslims out there.

The solution is to let them get there themselves, not to force them there. That is all I am advocating. This is regardless of my stance on any of the things that individual Muslims may or may not do to their wives.

 

[Preach]

Btw yeah, that video is pretty fucked

 

[ImmortalTech]

lol.. I dont know where to start.

It's funny that people get all anal about sources and validity of statements and all that jazz unless it's something they wanna hear.

The whole Islam promotes violence and aggression coupled with the whole Islam oppresses women theory is getting a little redundant from people that have little understanding of the religion. I've been so tied up lately, but I hope I get time to write an article or something in hopes to educate people here. Or atleast find one that I feel gives a comprehensive view on the subject.

lol @ "And how does Islam think they should get Jewish women out of their land? By raping them of course!"

It's crazy to me that when some psycho says some shit, and he happens to be a Muslim all of a sudden it's Islam making him think like that. But when anyone else does, they're just plain old psychos.

Anyways.. just for the hell of it.. Here's an interesting one by a mathematics professor who was an athiest that turned to Islam. This has absolutely nothing to do with the original videos.. it's just an interesting perspective (very long though has like 19 parts) he just talks about his life for the first few parts....

 

[Bigg Limn]

Preach on Preach!

I jus wanted 2 say for the most part...yeah just get the fuck out of the controlling of their lands.