So..... Muhammad was a pedofile

ImmortalTech · May 3, 2010

btw.. I'm officially peacing out from this thread.

The conversation is really going nowhere. It was fun while it lasted.

Peace out

edit: and it's got nothing to do with ur post Casey.. or ur's Duke. Like I said before both sides have presented their arguments... this shit shoulda ended like 20 pages ago

Jokerman · May 3, 2010

Preach said:

Taser usually works.

S O F I · May 3, 2010

Jokerman said:

Don't tase me, bro.

Duke · May 4, 2010

ImmortalTech said:

Nono, wait, i don't mean abandoning your religion's core values. As an atheist/agnostic I'll immediately admit that most religions' core values are excellent moral values. What I meant was that you have seem to transcended above the strict black and white idea that characterizes too many muslims, and religious people in general, these days.

And not caring makes you, imo, a good person on that extent. Now, the same point I brought against Preach applies here: I cannot expect anyone to react as well as you do. But, you admitting it doesn't phase you also proves my earlier point, in that properly educated and adapted people will learn to balance their own specific ideas with those of other cultures. It's openmindedness.

I would happily slander your religion in real life, depending how you look at your religion. Funny thing is, I'd do it more or less respectfully too.

Sorry, too drunk to understand where this came from.

Yeah well, like I said, it was a bait thing. I meant to provocate. I can be a jerk like that. Also, the fact that I was drunk because FC Twente, the football club I care very much about, won the Dutch championship for the first time ever, that didn't help at all.

But no, honestly. What I really wanted is you to give the reply you gave (which basically amounts to "ok...why was this?") and Jurhum going apeshit (because, sorry Jurry, you just come across as a fundamentalist). Of course a statement like the one I made can piss you guys off, by all means. But that's the thing. Being able to be pissed off without wishing death upon someone.

And furthermore, I honestly, hand on my heart, don't hate Islam in principle more than I hate any other religion. Sometimes I phrase my ideas a bit crudely on this forum, it's also part of my character, but I'm definitely not an Islamophobe. Any of you who think I am, you should listen to some of the real hardliners in my country. You'd be appalled. Even I would wanna catapult them into the North Sea.

It's also a stance I make against the overt political correctness. Especially SOFI and Preach advocate that side in this thread. But if the topic would be any other than Islam/Muhammad, I honestly doubt they would've taken that stance (sorry, guys. I just get the feeling you're being very advocate-of-the-devil in this (not actually implying this is a right/wrong thing) instead of your own actual sentiments. Especially you SOFI, lol.

It's a phenomenon that's all too common in the West these days. There are problems integrating muslim immigrants. This is not to be denied. The problems are there. Governments try to alleviate these problems by being lenient. A small but very critical part don't comply. The rest doesn't speak out against it. are afraid of condemning their "own".

Now, I know that integration comes from both sides, and most are good people, but all around the west, some of the problems are getting serious. And there's not the impression that the majority of the muslim communities are doing their best to curtail the disruptive behaviour of their members in the west.

Very briefly stated: A lot of western governments have gone out of their way to make things easier for muslims, to adapt ourselves to your way of life in certain things. A minority "repays" us by being totally disruptive and disrespectful to OUR way of life. "Your" majority doesnt really speak out against it, while many of your number are quick to cry wolf when something is being done against your community/way of life.

Now, no matter what anyone's stance is on this, one cannot help but acknowledge that this situation breeds anger in the common man. This is fact. Islam-hate and Islamophobia is increasing in the West. At alarming levels.

I don't like it. Even as a religion-hater I don't like it. It breeds unnecessary contempt and hate. But at the same time I cannot deny that it's beginning to take me as well. I find myself increasingly resentful specifically towards muslims and Islam. I don't want to be. I really don't.

But at the end of the day it's the muslims that create their own image. And while every sane westerner will acknowledgde that it's only a minority that ruins it for for the most of the normal, proper muslims that won't take a machete to the street when some Danish newspaper prints a cartoon, the painful reality for many westerners is this:

And this really wraps it up for "us":

There is so, so painfully little self-criticism from the muslim communities. When specifically asked they might mumble "yeah, its not right", but the voices that speak of liberating your religion from ancient doctrine and oppression are so scarce, it makes "us westerners" fear there is so little hope.

And I really think I hit the core of the subject here. If "we" would hear every third muslim proclaiming loud and clear "hey, those assholes don't carry out MY religion", there would be no not as much hate. There would be no distrust or paranoia on a large scale such as we see now.

It's the lack of openly self-criticism and compromise in the immigrant muslim communities that makes "us westerners" backlash against them.

Extreme example: French-French girl walks through a North-African Paris suburb and gets raped because "she dressed like a slut and was asking for it". (And seriously, if any of you muslims try to debate THIS with me, you can fuck off and go to hell straight up. You KNOW this happens, don't pretend otherwise.) In such a case there is just so little outcry from the community itself.

And that scares us. I'm sorry to say so but it does. There seems to be a lack of self-control.

Funny thing, in some larger Dutch cities the government has been experiencing with "street coaches". A "street coach" is basically an immigrant (for us Dutchies that means Turk, Moroccan, Antillian, Surinamese, Indonesian, Moluccan) that's a bit older, been in "the position" and came out on top. These guys try to learn the younger members of their group how to live in a western society (crudely said). Mostly through words and respect, sometimes by actual violence if they have to defend themselves (pretty much all "street coaches" are pretty big fucking guys. Might have done time even.)
Now, to my point: I've read an interview once with a guy from moroccan heritage that was a street coach. Said some very insightful thing, but the one that stuck out for me was this one:

btw: "Schilderswijk" is a part of The Hague with a lot of immigrants. About 90%.

He said: "In an area like the Schilderswijk, man, they should just let actual Moroccan police patrol that shit for three weeks. None of those guys will cause problems anymore".

It's funny for me, because as an idealistic republican democrat, I loathe the idea of police just wailing away at civilians whenever they fancy. But at the same time, in this current situation, it's a realistic solution even.

Anyway, I've feel I've been ranting. I probably have. I might've even started this post an hour before now.

Feel free to reply to any part

Twente champions yaaaay.

Preach · May 4, 2010

Preach said:

Jokerman said:

ImmortalTech said:

You probably picked up on it, but in the third quote you find my point. How do we make them stop? Say what you will about Islam or come up with a solution, discrimination against the Muslim members on this forums and trying to prove their beliefs invalid or inhumane is both indecent and pointless. It won't spark any discussion and you certainly won't get a response that will help you understand why things are the way they are. A lot of people in this thread have simply been pointing fingers. Great, congratulations, you're an average douche head of no significance, and you contribute to the evil in the world. You should be proud in my so heartfelt opinion.

Casey · May 4, 2010

/\ So, according to you, being able to identify a problem is worthless if you can't come up with an overall solution? That's ridiculous.

Unless great minds discuss and debate the issues, nobody will ever come to any solution. There's a whole range of complex issues here, it's not as simple as you would like to believe and no single person, or even small group, is going to be able to come up with some magical solution that fixes it all. But every little counts. Even just spreading the awareness helps.

Jokerman · May 4, 2010

Preach said:

First, I don't think "make them" are the right words. I’m sure you didn’t mean it that way either. But the answer is to encourage dialogue and commonality. We need to frame such behavior as illegitimate and anathema to Islam and the modern world. We need to start a social epidemic of rejection. We have more than enough multilingual representatives. America, for instance, is a nation with between 5-6 million Muslims, most of whom have not been called upon to be the spokespeople of America. Yet most do not condone terrorism or child abuse. But until we and they team up to fight a war of ideas against those who do, the only voices that Muslims will continue to hear are those of their religious leaders, pundits, and pseudo-educators.

In short, America and the West have potential partners in many countries who are eager to help us move the struggle to where it belongs: within Islam over its spiritual message and identity. It’s not a struggle between the West and Islam. It’s a struggle between the future and the past. Only Muslims can win this struggle within, but we can openly encourage the progressives. And insults have no place in that.

_carmi · May 7, 2010

^Yeah but it becomes a conflict between the West and Islam when the West is putting their nose where it doesn't belong to modernize Islamic countries and force democracy when it should be a progressive development. Would you be happy if let's say China decides who are the leaders of your country and how your government should work? It also becomes a West vs Islam conflict when Islam associates modern times and the West as one and makes us the bad guy. By Islam I mean their religious leaders, etc. whom Muslims follow. If you look at the history of Iran for example, there clearly is a West vs Islam conflict. Obviously some Islamic countries haven't affected as much by that conflict but still. It cannot be ignored.

Preach · May 11, 2010

Casey Rain said:

That wasn't my point either. Being able to identify a problem and choosing to be one sided about it and condemn the cause of the problem is an unnatural way to behave when a problem has two sides. We can all sit here and discuss and point fingers at Islam under the guise that we are "identifying the problem", but in a much more real sense, we are being discriminative and disrespectful.

Plus, a lot of people like to simply identify problems. Great, if that's a skill you have I salute you. I have nothing positive to say about people who run around identifying problems for no apparent reason, though. It seems weird and pointless and probably comes back to the person being a selfish prick anyway.

You can say that according to me, identifying problems without thinking solution oriented is like claiming to be a man of God but touching little boys. According to me, it is unacceptable for someone to be a hypocrite, and then pretending to be righteous and falsely take pride in it afterwards. According to me, bad people are bad and people that defend those who are misunderstood can only ever do so out of a desire to do good. Whereas people who feel the need to use the term "pedophile" to describe Muhammad (which is factually wrong as the definition of pedophile is directly relevant to social norms in the period of time) are simply looking to strike a nerve. You are not looking for a solution to a problem, you aren't helping anything. You are being a sheep. It's like when you see a green ball and point and say "there's a green ball". "AWW ISN'T THAT A GOOD BUY WHO COULD SEE THE GREEN BALL YOU SHOULD GET A PRIZE

" not rly.

Casey Rain said:

Oh really. Lol. My point was, contribute or stfu. Not that there's a magical answer, and that it's viable that anyone from this forum comes up with that magical answer. You tell me there's no magical solution as if that's brand new information to me. You missed my point entirely. As such your last statement is pointless to reply to because it's founded on a misunderstanding, but to be clear, I don't disagree with what you are saying. I disagree that we can use terms like "great minds", "debate" and "solution" for most things posted in this thread so far.

Also, asking "how do we make them stop" was an attempt at being edgy. If you look at Jokerman's post, it looks thought out. In the end, his thinking is solution oriented. A lot of people just wanna point fingers though, and have been doing exactly that in this thread. I wanted to see the responses. I'm not surprised that pretty much one person could give an actual proposed idea for what he sees as a possible suggestion. The sentence in itself tried to make the point that most of you are just pointing fingers because you are morons. "You" (as in "we") aren't actually "great minds". We trick ourselves to think we aren't morons, allowing ourselves to further trick ourselves and be morons. A bunch of haters with hateful thoughts joining together and pointing the finger, fooling ourselves to believe we are having a society conscious debate. The very essence of bad human interactions. The same mental processes that a group of kids who pick on the fat kid go through. The same kind of motivation.

Casey · May 11, 2010

Preach said:

No, it isn't. Definitions do not change over time. Definitions are not judgemental by themselves. Sometimes you have to call a spade a spade, rather than walking on eggshells to avoid potentially hurting other peoples feelings.

If you have a sexual interest in pre-pubescent children, you are a pedophile by definition. Modern society rightfully condemns pedophilia as evil. That wasn't so much the case back in Muhammad's day, but that doesn't mean the definition doesn't apply.

If, a thousand years ago, it was acceptable under societal norms to kill someone for committing [insert crime], that doesn't mean you are not a murderer. Clearly you would be, by it's definition. The term applies regardless - what you are talking about is the way the term is viewed in general by people.

Who are you to make that judgement? Don't assume you can speak for everybody here. For all you know, any one of us in this forum could have the greatest mind known to mankind. Plus, it's subjective.

For example, some might say I am a great mind when it comes to studies of contemporary music and popular culture in the 20th and 21st centuries, and the modern music industry in the digital social age. The guest lectures I have given at universities would support that basis. That's my field. Jokerman has regularly proved himself to be a great mind, in my opinion, in the fields of certain areas of science. Once you have that level of intellectualism in a subject, it is fair to use that term even in discussions of other subjects, because generally speaking you approach everything with that level of intelligence.

Feel free to make those kind of remarks whilst in a state of self-deprecation. However, when you attempt to paint others with the same brush you are falling victim to the very ideologies you claim to be against with your post.

Cooper · May 12, 2010

For example, some might say I am a great mind when it comes to studies of contemporary music and popular culture in the 20th and 21st centuries, and the modern music industry in the digital social age. The guest lectures I have given at universities would support that basis. That's my field. Jokerman has regularly proved himself to be a great mind, in my opinion, in the fields of certain areas of science. Once you have that level of intellectualism in a subject, it is fair to use that term even in discussions of other subjects, because generally speaking you approach everything with that level of intelligence.

I'm smart too :/

Jokerman · May 12, 2010

Casey Rain said:

I've also been proven to be a great lover.

Great Minds

Preach · May 19, 2010

I swear to God, I intended to write a short "whatever" post. I've spent like an hour on this shit now.

Casey Rain said:

Yes, it is. What is the difference between "the way people see the term" and "social norm"? The fact that a majority sees something a certain way, makes the way they see it, a social norm. Regardless, what you are saying is only semi true. If you have sex with a pre-pubescent child in 2010, you are defined as a pedophile by the law. If you had sex with a pre-pubescent child 2000 years ago the case would be closed due to dated evidence. Lol. Language is not a governed institute. There is no government that decides the meaning of words. The definition of pedophilia is indeed very reliant on how people view the term.

Okay, think about it for a second, what happened that suddenly changed things in a way that gave children (and humans in general) rights? Why was it more common to have sex with children or very young teenagers like two thousand years ago, but somehow now the general majority sees it as wrong and don't do it as much, or punish those that do? Just about how in the heck did that happen? And more importantly, does anyone HERE know how it happened? Have you even bothered to think about it? Well, I guess we can look at psychological and human-ethical research and thank advances in those fields for why we as humans have "rights" in this world today. Why don't we want children to have sex? Well, some people probably think "because it's disgusting and wrong", and that's okay to think that. But that's a retarded reason to condemn something. It's like hating someone and wanting to kill them for smelling bad. It's superficial and not very thought-through. People that think like that are sick in the head actually, in my opinion. Sociopaths. They join in on the condemnation to be a part of the rest but they don't have the mental capacity to sympathize and understand the emotions of the victim, so in the end they are condemning pedophilia for the wrong reasons. Most people with a brain and some decency realize that it has to do with the child's personality and psyche. We try to instill discipline and healthy values in our children when we raise them. We do this to keep them from becoming selfish and brutal in their nature when they grow up. Social studies show that children that are sexually abused most often become sexually active early on, and generally have a very unhealthy relationship to the concept of sexuality. This unhealthy relationship can leave a hole. A discrepancy from the majority of people out there, that the person who experiences it have such trouble dealing with that they become depressed, some times suicidal, and even angry at the world. It's not good for them and it's not good for the world, and we have a culture of doing unto others as you want done to you. It's a matter of us being humane, and not wanting a child to suffer, wanting them to have the ability to live a happy and peaceful life.

From this point of view, it makes perfect sense to condemn pedophilia. It is not good for the child, and we can even point to why it isn't. We know. They didn't necessarily know this in the same way in Muhammad's day. A "pedophile" is a person who knows this but does it anyway. Muhammad was something else. It's not about stepping on egg shells. It's about how delicate were you when you thought about how you want to define this. Some things simply can not be said in a paragraph. In those cases you owe it to yourself, the universe, and Greater Justice to either paraphrase with an extended explanation, or to not utter yourself at all. Saying he is a pedophile is a way of not having to consider all the "heavy, deep, boring facts" in the matter and being incoherent and incomplete. It's like saying a mobile phone is like a portable PC. For some people that works, but it is not factually correct. It is, in fact, so factually flawed that the terms "correct" and "incorrect" don't even properly paint the difference between a PC and a mobile phone. You would need a book to describe all the physical and philosophical differences. Listen, I understand the edgy nature of saying something that can be debated as if it were true to cause controversy, I just don't think it's a good strategy. From a political point of view it is very unprofessional, almost like gambling.

Casey Rain said:

Well, no, not quite, but I explained it all in the paragraphs above. The term "pedophile" is unique in that until we decided we no longer condone it, it was a term that didn't exist. Killing has never been condoned, but no record can reflect that there was ever a law that decided when a girl/woman was ready to have sex. However, if we assume that the bible is at least historically true, then killing has been "wrong" since Moses went into the desert, in other words, a very very long time ago. Comparison is invalid. And besides, I'm not looking to discuss. There is a layer to the discussion of the definition of a pedophile that you have shut a blind eye to. I know this so I apparently must have experienced things you haven't, read an article you didn't, or something like that. That layer that you've shut your eye to is, basically, the entire gray zone between the black and white.

Casey Rain said:

I'm not making that judgment, I am implying that I am no one to make that judgment, and neither are you, nor anyone else, so to even imply that you are a great mind is ridiculous. I can't tell you you're not a great mind, but you can't tell me you are one either. As such, using the term" great minds" was pointless. It sounds like an essence-less inspirational speech on your part, not like the true emotions of a person. "Unless the great minds explore and discuss this matter and philosophize on it" but that's not what you are doing. You are boldly stating that Muhammad is a pedophile on a non-religious, non-official forum discussion where the amount of Muslim responses will be minimal. That action is pointless and will yield little to no results. You can not possibly on the one hand try to say that you want the suffering in the Middle East to stop, then on the other make a thread like that on a forum like that with an attitude like yours, and expect anyone to buy it. If you don't see the hypocrisy then you should review this matter again in 3 months when no one can go back and call you on it, and when you won't feel forced to respond. It most surely is there, lol, trust me. And it's why the muslims get so pissed. So now you have the diagnose, but you're the doctor of yourself, figure out how to treat it and you're golden. Maybe open yourself or maybe read about Muslim's feelings or maybe get a Muslim friend that's emo and have a deep conversation, or stop saying "Muhammad is a pedophile", or admit that you are just listening to your impulses, or do none of those things but at least now you know why you get the responses you do -> That's the point I tried to make. As for the judgment of great minds, I never call myself a great mind. I leave that judgment to those around me exclusively.

Casey Rain said:

Here is my very problem. You think you are a "great mind", and that your statement that most people have rejected so far must be true, it's just the rest of us that can't see it yet, because you are so ahead of your time. I'm not saying I think that's what you're thinking, I'm telling you that if I wasn't a smarter person, that's the impression I'd get. Take it however you want and do with it whatever you will, I don't care lol. Intelligence is not about a level you attain from schooling. Someone with high IQ can still lie so much to themselves, causing so many social complexities that the person comes off as a blithering moron. Intelligence is relevant, and no, having knowledge in a field like musical culture does not in any way qualify you within fields of sociology or history. Not more than other, less great minds, anyway. Intelligence is also about emotion. For all your musical culture and greatness you can be emotionally crippled in ways that we don't even have tools to measure. If you can't understand how another person feels you can have an IQ for 200, you still have nothing to do in a social discussion. Unfortunately there's no way to tell if someone is emotionally crippled as the term itself is only loosely definable. That's why I think it's moronic to use terms like "great minds" and see oneself on such a pedestal. That's just me, but I felt like I needed to explain why I don't see it as self-deprecation. It's a more realistic outlook on life, I'd say. But you go do your fabulous rockstar thing lol, I can be as wrong about you as I think you are about this particular matter, and I'm not saying you haven't made it in many ways. Just that being great in one capacity does not make you great in every capacity.

Casey Rain said:

Like I said earlier, I wasn't self-deprecated. I'm not saying you aren't a great mind, I'm just saying it's kinda funny that you imply that you and others are great minds, and use that as an argument in a discussion. You said something like "unless problems are discussed by great minds" in a context where I was addressing something that was very specific to this very discussion/thread. Your response implied that there were "great minds" on this board. My complaint was that this thread is counter-beneficial to anything you would ever be caught on record saying as a reason given for your motivation in this discussion. Trying to paint Muhammad as a pedophile under the guise of wanting to stop the oppression of women's rights and freedom in the Middle East is counter-beneficial as you only cause more anger and a bigger distance between the East and the West. And instead of agreeing with this very simple truth, you try to debate it. In this context I found it funny to use the term "great minds", and I tried to make the point that you shouldn't sit so high on the chair. You can very easily be wrong both factually and philosophically, and it scares me that you reserve no part of you that is open for it in this discussion. As you can tell from my language, the very words I choose, I try to not make any acute statements about things that can be viewed differently, as being too acute is the actual problem that is causing all the drama in the world. Two sides refusing to be open. If you must know, I believe I am a great mind in the capacity that I have been gifted in the ability to see discrepancies, dichotomy and contrasts of emotions and sociology. I am trying to use this gift to make you understand that the way you are going about addressing your concerns with the Middle-Eastern way of life are counter-productive to all the things you have proclaimed to want. I can tell you this with the highest assurance. Give this "Muhammad is a pedophile" thing a rest and try to find a more positive way to bring about a change, if that is what you really want. Muslims will have to criticize their own but any outside criticism will not lead positive results. If you can admit that you only answer to your own humane desires of wanting to put someone down (a very common human emotion) when you call Muhammad a pedophile, I can respect the honesty and see the logic. It would be a blessing because then I'd know you're only being human. But if you think you are contributing anything good or that your rebellious statement will have any kind of reverse psychology effect on Muslims, you are wrong. If you can't see that I would like to add that you are also crazy. We already know you are intelligent but that is one side of seven coins. It does not ultimately define you in every aspect of intellectuality.

MaroC · May 31, 2010

Hey Rukas...So what our prophet married a nine year old. You think stating that on this board will offend me. So lame, try harder.

Really. Waste of your zionist time if you ask me. Perhaps we should let the past be the past and focus on what goes on in your church nowadays with 9-year olds. Oh no, why bother, they're not muslims and therefor not interesting enough to mention.

Flipmo · May 31, 2010

I don't really take sides on this issue, but I can say that the Catholic church and its issues involving pedophilia has been talked about over and over again on this board, and bashed over and over again. There was just a thread about it maybe a month ago. Actually, it's been talked about more than Islam, Judaism or any other religion over the years. Much of the board here is against all forms of religion, and many others are Athiest by nature. While things get heated here, and at many times I believe to a disrespectful extent which I don't agree with ... I can assure you everything gets shitted on in this forum, sometimes unjustfully, but many people from different places have different ideas on issues - so it happens.

For the record, myself and many other members of this forum condemn Israel, their policies and treatment of those in the Gaza strip.

I hope that clears things up a bit.

Chronic · May 31, 2010

^^
That's such a Jewish thing to say :rolleyes:

MaroC · Jun 1, 2010

Flipmo said:

Really? I dont come around here often but just on the first page alone yesterday i saw like 4 or 5 islam-bashing threads. I'm like what happened man. Hitemup.com use to be a hiphop/urban/2pac fansite. Now it just turned into a all out redneck/zionist anti-islam site.

And for the record, yourself and many other members condemn Israel. Even the hardest zionist jerrycurl colonist will claim that if you ask him. Those words dont mean shit. Its more of a PR-thingy nowadays, the right thing to say.

Flipmo · Jun 1, 2010

All those threads happened in one day. One arguement spawned into another and another out of spite. It's hard to believe especially when you just come onto here and see that, but it's the first time it's happened. Past threads in here have mostly been about religion as a whole, nothing specific.

I don't see how it's 'the right thing' to say, or it's a PR thing. I've never met a person that chooses a stance cause it looks 'cool'. For the most part, North-Americans have and still support Israel's actions and plans in the Middle-East. Shit, I just listened to the radio, and only 1 man condemned Israel out of 10 to give you an idea.
I don't know what kind of people you meet, but where I come from, and the people I hang with - their word is golden, and are able to back up their claim. But hey... You have your reasons to believe as you please and that's fine, and you're entitled to it.

_carmi · Jun 2, 2010

MaroC said:

Get over your Islamic self. Stop victimizing yourself. If you had been around, you'd have noticed we pretty much bash all religions.

Now, why are these threads about Islam getting huge post counts? Because while Christians are willing to admit their religious heads can be at fault, Muslims are not able to admit some things might not be right and at any chance use violence to prove their point. When the paedophilia scandal hit the Catholic church, you did not see the Pope reply with rockets or Catholics reply by rioting, or any other violent display.

Any intelligent human being is able to look at himself, at his beliefs, and take the best and leave the worst. Where I come from, Quebec, we even have nuns go on TV stating that our Pope and the Catholic hierarchy's way of thinking is outdated. We are able to look at our shit and criticize it. Something I have yet to see from most Muslims I have met or spoken to in my life.

Ps. If the Roman Catholic church is outdated, Islam's way of thinking is certainly prehistoric at this point. All things must evolve.

Rukas · Jun 2, 2010

MaroC said:

Im Anti-Israel. We discuss everything in here. I didnt bash the Prophet Mohammad at all, I pasted Islamic scripture. Isnt studying Islamic scripture at the heart of the faith? And Im Buddhist.

So..... Muhammad was a pedofile

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