So..... Muhammad was a pedofile

[Jokerman]

That would make him a child molestor, not a pedophile.

Well thank God for that! Once again, Muslims can hold their heads high.

But seriously, either way he did something he shouldn't have done, unless we give him a pass because he grew up in a culture that condoned it or we believe it was the will of Allah. Allah wanted the marriage and protected Aisha from being harmed. That argument is enough for believers, but we non-Muslims can dismiss it out-of-hand. But the first one, I believe, might make the case that he personally was not deviant the way someone today would be. As I said before, he married women of all ages. Pedophiles are usually exclusively interested in children. So, I agree, he wasn't technically a pedophile. He was a product of his times and his place and his position. In a universal moral sense, he molested a child, with the consent of her parents and their society, which make them all child molesters, in that sense. But they all obviously weren't born with this sexual dysfunction that makes for a true pedophile. And I don't believe Muhammed was either.

But who cares? What conclusion we come to about this will not affect what Muslims think of him. And we non-Muslims will not think better or worse about him because he doesn't mean anything to us. So who are we discussing this for? No one. It's just an excuse to try to make Muslims feel bad about their beliefs. Not saying that's wrong, but that's what it is.

 

[Duke]

If Muhammad wasn't a Twente fan, he can fuck off and go to hell.


Is that offensive enough to warrant death?

 

[ImmortalTech]

^you've made a lot of insightful posts in the past. You have opinions similar to mine as well as ones that are very different. I often read ur posts and think ur views are interesting and gain a better understanding for various ideas and opinions.

But what exactly was the purpose of that post?

 

[Chronic]

But who cares?

I curr, just trying to understand better.

 

[Flipmo]

^you've made a lot of insightful posts in the past. You have opinions similar to mine as well as ones that are very different. I often read ur posts and think ur views are interesting and gain a better understanding for various ideas and opinions.

But what exactly was the purpose of that post?

FC Twente won the Eredivisie, he's happy. lol

 

[Duke]

^you've made a lot of insightful posts in the past. You have opinions similar to mine as well as ones that are very different. I often read ur posts and think ur views are interesting and gain a better understanding for various ideas and opinions.

But what exactly was the purpose of that post?

Well, actually I was looking for a muslim to take the bait. All this talk of respect is very nice and very true, but in the real world you will undoubtedly encounter people that will not give a fuck what someone stands for and make it known. Especially in the West. It's something people will just have to deal with, like some jerkwad online slandering your prophet.

Mostly it was just for provocative kicks, though. I have never shy'd away from kicking a few shins here and there and I'm definitely not going to sit here, pretend i'm a big hypocritical sack of shit and speak of how we should all deeply respect each other on a 24/7 basis like illmatic and Preach preach. As if they never purposefully offend someone.


Also, what Flipmo said. Twente > Muhammad, Buddha, Jesus, the whole lot.

Maybe not Seaman, though.

 

[S O F I]

twente? like twenty? like twenty dollars? chump change, i'm all about my new benjamins baby.

 

[Preach]

and I'm definitely not going to sit here, pretend i'm a big hypocritical sack of shit and speak of how we should all deeply respect each other on a 24/7 basis like illmatic and Preach preach. As if they never purposefully offend someone.

That's fine that you read our posts like that. I don't think you get it though.

You seem to imply that because I suggest an idea, I must be living it myself, otherwise the idea itself has no credential. That is an OK way to look at things, but I know even you wouldn't agree with that. You, too, preach ideals and morals that you probably do not always follow through on. It's not about what I do in a weak moment when I need acknowledgment or gratification. Because then you, too, have probably crossed your own word at some point. Being a hypocrite doesn't mean being wrong.

We are different beings with different outlooks. If we strip our perspectives down to the core, it feels like this is the real argument that me and you are having in this thread:
Me: We shouldn't belittle them even when they are wrong, because it will hurt their ego so much that they will never be able to come to the conclusion that they are wrong on their own, and thus they will never change.
You: You don't always stand by the morals you've preached here and we have a right to belittle people whose practices do not go hand in hand with Western standards, and I don't want to feel bad about it when I purposefully hurt these people, because a majority of them are ruthless people and deserve it anyway.

The difference here is, if I actually did offend a Muslim, even purposefully, it would ride my guilt and bother the fuck out of me. I might not say it, but I've never hurt someone's feelings and felt okay about it. You can't possibly say the same because you are preaching why you think you should be able to slander without guilt because of how our society is. You and your buddies probably fuck around about anything from period blood and murdering kittens to regular humor. Westerners are morbid in their humor. My pack of friends similarly make fun of everything. Nothing's sacred. So even when you suggest that I'm hypocritical, it's because you don't see the full picture of who I am and what I do.

 

[Duke]

I guess that's the difference then. I really don't feel bad for insulting someone over a faith. Possibly there are exceptions, the few proper believers that have managed to get their heads out of their ass I would feel bad for offending, but they probably wouldn't care as much.


I mean, really. ImmortalTech for example. He seems a levelheaded guy that long since abandoned the dogmas and doctrines of his religion.

IT, are you REALLY bothered if some jerk online insults Muhammad? Will you really lose sleep over it? Does it stab you in the heart? Or do you just think "asshole" and move on?

 

[Preach]

IT, are you REALLY bothered if some jerk online insults Muhammad? Will you really lose sleep over it? Does it stab you in the heart? Or do you just think "asshole" and move on?

I think "asshole" and move on. But that's not what bothers me the most though. It's not about the actual slander either.

When people discuss there are so many implications or possible implications that it's difficult to communicate really, but when you criticize Muslim ways because they are inhumane, ultimately that is a moral or ethical question. That was the premise of this thread. He is a pedophile because of his actions, which were condoned in his time. So in essence, the very thread was malicious in nature. Jokerman has already stated this and no one ever disagrees with Jokerman. He sincerely asks "who are we discussing this for?"

This discussion has been about morals, freedom of speech and the idea that the Middle East and Islam as religions need to grow. What bothers me is not that people slur Islam. It's that they do it under the guise of being interested in a paradigm shift in the Middle East, while in fact they contribute to the opposite by sowing hatred and feeding the stereotype of the ignorant infidel dog who holds nothing sacred and cares about nothing. The ruthless savage. You are feeding that stereotype without realizing it. THAT stabs me in the heart and bothers the fuck out of me. It bothers me that you're that way, and it bothers me that I'm that way.

 

[Duke]

You can spend all day bothering the way humans are.

 

[Jurhum]

Duke it's really sad to see such insults coming from you. But, I guess you do reflect very much the wests stance on Islam. Thus, going back to my other post that I posted about westerners will never accept Muslims until they follow the western way of life. And this will never happen.

 

[masta247]

Yeah I'm like Duke in this case. I don't avoid Jesus jokes if there are good ones. Same about any other religions. I think that people catching feelings over religions are silly in the first place. Because they chose to get touched by them in the first place and I think that it's wrong as it means it's just not healthy.
Not that I'll change them but I don't see a problem joking about that as well as taking someone's jokes.

I wouldn't joke about someone's real life personal tragedies though. That's a totally different thing.

I agree that I am a bit biased though as I see a lot of things about Islam ridiculous (not the core spiritual values though, more like everything around it). I don't see a reason why shouldn't I joke about their clothes (which are more related to their whereabouts and not religion itself), extremists and blowing up which are all wrong in my opinion and somehow related to Islam.
I wouldn't joke about their closest values though and I don't mean blind belief in a mythical figure either.

 

[yak pac fatal]

Duke it's really sad to see such insults coming from you. But, I guess you do reflect very much the wests stance on Islam. Thus, going back to my other post that I posted about westerners will never accept Muslims until they follow the western way of life. And this will never happen.

lets not talk about islams stance against everyone else.

 

[Casey]

The really disturbing thing, that I think nobody has mentioned yet, is the amount of paedophilia that happens in Islamic communities today where they use the example of Muhammad and Aisha to justify their sick, twisted actions.

As we have clearly established from this thread, many of them believe that Muhammad couldn't possibly do anything wrong, ever, so in their mind they now believe it's perfectly fine to molest children because Muhammad did it.

 

[Preach]

How do we make them stop?

 

[yak pac fatal]

^2012

 

[ImmortalTech]

I guess that's the difference then. I really don't feel bad for insulting someone over a faith. Possibly there are exceptions, the few proper believers that have managed to get their heads out of their ass I would feel bad for offending, but they probably wouldn't care as much.


I mean, really. ImmortalTech for example. He seems a levelheaded guy that long since abandoned the dogmas and doctrines of his religion.

IT, are you REALLY bothered if some jerk online insults Muhammad? Will you really lose sleep over it? Does it stab you in the heart? Or do you just think "asshole" and move on?

I dont feel like I've abandoned anything at all. I dont know why you would think that. Yes there was a point in my life where I had abandoned my religion, but today, I feel like I'm a more educated and stronger Muslim than I ever was.

And no I wont lose sleep over some guy on the internet saying anything at all to be honest. I dont even think 'asshole' and move on. I dont give it much thought at all. We all are our own individuals. We all make our own choices. We're all responsible for our own actions whether it be in this life.. or the next (if u believe in that kinda thing). If you dont believe in life after death, or karma.. then atleast u make urself look bad.. either ways ur statements affect you more than they affect anybody else.

And referring to what u said that in real life, you'll encounter people that dont give a fuck about u stand for and make it known. I really honestly feel thats a very raarree case. I think people are more willing to say these kinda things online than they are in person.

I've never in my entire life come across a single human being that has slandered my religion to my face. Not cuz I'm some big bad ass muslim guy that walks around looking for heads to cut off.. it's just cuz thats how human beings are (most of em).

It's like stereotypes and prejudice.. If something got stolen at a workplace.. nobody is gonna stand up and point at the black guy and say IT WAS HIM! LOOK AT HIM! I KNOW IT!.. but when they're amongst themselves some people that hold those beliefs might talk amongst eachother like.. 'omg i think the black guy stole it'.

But referring to ur original post.. I was just kinda thrown off to be honest. I'm thinking, here's this guy that usually posts up pretty well thought out posts from his perspective, and then he just deicdes to flip the script.

The really disturbing thing, that I think nobody has mentioned yet, is the amount of paedophilia that happens in Islamic communities today where they use the example of Muhammad and Aisha to justify their sick, twisted actions.

As we have clearly established from this thread, many of them believe that Muhammad couldn't possibly do anything wrong, ever, so in their mind they now believe it's perfectly fine to molest children because Muhammad did it.

How about some evidence to back up your claim that your attempting to pass off as a fact.

And please don’t quote something like:

www.ihateislamandimakeupthingstomaketheworldhateitaswell.com

 

[Casey]

/\

Tarek Fatah, call your office: Muslim leaders in Yemen say those who support ban on child marriage are apostates - Jihad Watch

Now wait a minute. The exemplary Moderate Muslim Tarek Fatah just grew monumentally indignant when Wafa Sultan dared to point out that (as is recorded in the earliest, most reliable Islamic sources) Muhammad was 54 when he consummated his marriage with the nine-year-old Aisha. Fatah assured us greasy Islamophobes that Aisha was actually fourteen or fifteen at the time she married Muhammad.

But then why do the Islamic leaders in Yemen not seem to understand this? In Islam, Muhammad is the supreme example of conduct (cf. Qur'an 33:21). Thus he is exemplary even in his marriage to a child: Muslims take this seriously and imitate Muhammad in this. Article 1041 of the Civil Code of the Islamic Republic of Iran states that girls can be engaged before the age of nine, and married at nine: "Marriage before puberty (nine full lunar years for girls) is prohibited. Marriage contracted before reaching puberty with the permission of the guardian is valid provided that the interests of the ward are duly observed."

The Ayatollah Khomeini himself married a ten-year-old girl when he was twenty-eight. Khomeini called marriage to a prepubescent girl "a divine blessing," and advised the faithful: "Do your best to ensure that your daughters do not see their first blood in your house."

Time magazine reported in 2001: "In Iran the legal age for marriage is nine for girls, fourteen for boys. The law has occasionally been exploited by pedophiles, who marry poor young girls from the provinces, use and then abandon them. In 2000 the Iranian Parliament voted to raise the minimum age for girls to fourteen, but this year, a legislative oversight body dominated by traditional clerics vetoed the move. An attempt by conservatives to abolish Yemen's legal minimum age of fifteen for girls failed, but local experts say it is rarely enforced anyway. (The onset of puberty is considered an appropriate time for a marriage to be consummated.)"

The United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) reports that over half of the girls in Afghanistan and Bangladesh are married before they reach the age of eighteen. In early 2002, researchers in refugee camps in Afghanistan and Pakistan found half the girls married by age thirteen. In an Afghan refugee camp, more than two out of three second-grade girls were either married or engaged, and virtually all the girls who were beyond second grade were already married. One ten-year-old was engaged to a man of sixty.

And now Islamic clerics in Yemen say that to oppose child marriage takes one out of Islam.

What would the exemplary Moderate Muslim Tarek Fatah say to them? What do you bet that if he responds to this at all, it will be not by saying anything to them at all, but by calling me names -- the way Moderate Muslim spokesmen in the West always respond to such challenges?

"Yemen: Ban on Child Brides Is Imperiled," from the Associated Press, March 22 (thanks to all who sent this in):

Some of Yemen's most influential Muslim leaders have declared supporters of a ban on child brides to be apostates. The religious decree, issued Sunday, imperils efforts to salvage legislation that would make marriage illegal for people younger than 17. A 2009 law that did that was repealed and sent back to Parliament's constitutional committee for review after some lawmakers called it un-Islamic....

It's not just in Islamic countries either.

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/11/k...ory-rape-in-marriage-to-14-year-old-girl.html

Speaking of child marriage: "Man charged with statutory rape in 'marriage' to 14-year-old girl," by Christine Vendel for The Kansas City Star, November 8 (thanks to Axel):

Vincent Mosby signed a marriage contract and paid a dowry in a religious ceremony in August, police said.
Mosby, 23, of Kansas City didn't legally wed his 14-year-old bride, however, because Missouri law won't allow it without a judge's order. Police said she was pressured into the union because her mother and stepfather thought she was going to be sexually active with a boy her age.

Although the bride's stepfather arranged the "marriage," according to court records, other relatives frowned upon the union and told police in late August. The relatives also took the girl to protect her from further sexual abuse, according to court records.

A relative told police that Mosby called and threatened violence if family members didn't "give me back my wife in 72 hours," according to court records. Two days later, on Sept. 9, someone fired three shots into the Kansas City home of the girl's aunt. No one was hit.

Police arrested Mosby on Saturday for his alleged sexual relationship with the teenager. Jackson County prosecutors on Sunday filed one count of statutory rape. A judge set a $100,000 cash-only bond.

Police said the girl's stepfather and mother became concerned that she was going to become sexually active, so the stepfather allegedly approached Mosby about marrying the girl. The girl was "strongly encouraged" to wed Mosby, police said.

The stepfather, Mosby and the teen had several "sit downs" before the stepfather arranged for a religious ceremony on Aug. 4 at her home, not far from the stepfather's mosque.

Two members of the mosque attended, but the bride "was not allowed to be present," court records said. She waited in her room upstairs. Her stepfather allegedly came upstairs after the ceremony, which consisted of prayers and a contract signing, to announce that she was married.

Police say they have the "marriage contract" with the signatures of Mosby, the girl and the stepfather....

In Islam, boys and girls are considered adults based on when they hit puberty, and people in some parts of the world do marry young, said Mahnaz Shabbir of Stilwell, a past president of the Heartland Muslim Council.

However, she said, Islam also says followers should live by the laws of the land....

Also mentioned here:

http://www.jihadwatch.org/2009/03/f...tician-to-be-tried-for-blaspheming-islam.html

Besides blasphemy, Halla-aho was "ordered to stand trial for publishing on his blog that Islam's prophet was a pedophile." Here again we encounter the Orwellian, or perhaps more precisely Alice-In-Wonderland, Through-the-Looking-Glass quality of today's public discourse. The collection of traditions of Muhammad that Muslims consider most reliable, Sahih Bukhari, affirms in no less than five places that Aisha was six when Muhammad took her and nine when he consummated the marriage (vol. 5, bk. 58, no. 234; vol. 5 bk. 58 no. 236; vol. 7 bk. 62 no. 64; vol. 7 bk. 62 no. 65; and vol. 7 bk. 62 no. 88). It is also in Sunan Abu Dawud (bk. 41 no. 4915), another of the Sahih Sittah, the six hadith collections Muslims accept as most reliable.

The concept of pedophilia did not exist in Muhammad's day. His marriage to Aisha was not unusual in the context of the time; but it becomes extremely problematic, and conducive to pedophilia, when Muhammad is held up as the "excellent example of conduct" (Qur'an 33:21) for all time, and followed in this in our own day. And child marriage is indeed common in some areas of the Islamic world -- notably Afghanistan, but it is by no means limited to Afghanistan only.

In any case, in light of all that, Halla-aho was saying something perfectly reasonable. I hope he will be able to bring some of this evidence in his own defense.

Free Speech Death Watch Update: "Free Speech Slammed in Finland as Politician is Brought up on Blasphemy Charges.......," from Tundra Tabloids, March 27:

Jussi Halla-aho to stand trial for blasphemy against Allah
Believe it or not, Finland still has blasphemy laws on the books, but there have been repeated attempts to rescind Section 10 of chapter 17 of the Finnish penal code. All attempts however, at removing the anti-modern statute from the law books have proved unsuccessful, with the latest attempt failing in 1998.

Helsinki city councilman, Jussi Halla-aho was charged with blasphemy and incitement of an ethnic-group in the Helsinki district court today, and ordered to stand trial for publishing on his blog that Islam's prophet was a pedophile. According to the Deputy Prosecuting Attorney, Jorme Kalske:

"Halla-aho had uploaded to the Internet and submitted writings to the general public, in which Islam and its sacred institutions were combined with pedophilia, and in which was also presented the robbery of pedestrians and the ooting of tax revenue was a certain national group or a specific genetic characteristic.
The charges were presented in the Helsinki District Court. Halla-aho denies the charges"

 

[ImmortalTech]

And please don't quote something like:

www.ihateislamandimakeupthingstomaketheworldhateitaswell.com

.. and u chose jihadwatch.org

... LOL!