Sarkozy to submit bill banning Islamic face veils

[ImmortalTech]

hmm ok fair enough, my analogy was a bit extreme.. but theoretically speaking then what are ur thoughts on verbal harassment? Do you ever draw a line? Can a person stop every female on the street and tell them he wishes he could lick their assholes?

Btw, I'm not saying this just for the sake of arguement, I actually wanna know that when people talk about freedom of speech are they wholeheartedly and unconditionally down for it in all situations? or do they draw a line somewhere? if so, where is the line?

I believe in freedom of speech and expression. I just dont feel that you have the liberty to hurt or offend somebody in the name of it.

Not that I'm a person that gets hurt by words.. but some do, thats just a fact. Call em pussies call em soft, whatever u want. At the end of the day if one has the liberty to hurt someone with their words, who's to say that one doesnt have the right to hurt someone with their hands.

If a person wants to exercise their right of freedom of expression against islam or any religion or any iideology, theres better ways of doing it than "fuck.." (and I know Casey acknowledged that)

'I do not agree with Islam or their belief system, it makes no sense to me, I'm shocked that people actually study that religion and dont see the same inconsistencies I've found" ..vs.. "Fuck the Koran and all the camel jockey fucks that follow that bullshit"

"Till this day nobody has been able to explain the concept of the trinity, in a way that made sense to me" ..vs.. "Fuck Jesus and the Vatican"

etc. etc.


Anyways thats just the way I look at it. I dont expect people to agree with me.

peace.

Btw. The First Amendment does not give people the right to say whatever they want, there are several limitations included.

 

[S O F I]

^Yes, like yelling fire in a theater, cursing in school, bla bla.

I like the idea of creating a parody video of Obama and posting in on the internet, if I feel so. If I do that shit in Iran, I'm going to prison. Fuck, even in a supposedly secular country like Turkey, you can't make fun of some leader(s) and you can get prison time for it. Nobody is saying that freedom of speech and expression are perfect and unlimited in the US, but it's still a lot fucking better than in Muslim societies.

Also, by the way, I don't condone what Sarkozy is doing and what other countries are doing with these bans. But I can't stand the response (see Jurhum) from Muslims on these albeit very stupid and discriminatory laws.

Also (pt 2), it's futile to compare statistics on crime and domestic violence when it comes to Islamic societies. It takes a lot of courage for a women to admit to domestic violence in the US, but just try and think how hard it is for a woman in Iran? So, I laugh at any government statistic from those societies.

 

[Casey]

hmm ok fair enough, my analogy was a bit extreme.. but theoretically speaking then what are ur thoughts on verbal harassment? Do you ever draw a line? Can a person stop every female on the street and tell them he wishes he could lick their assholes?

Btw, I'm not saying this just for the sake of arguement, I actually wanna know that when people talk about freedom of speech are they wholeheartedly and unconditionally down for it in all situations? or do they draw a line somewhere? if so, where is the line?

The point of freedom of speech is that a statement like "where is the line?" doesn't make any sense. The line is wherever YOU as an individual choose it to be.

If someone wants to tell all the women on the street that he wants to lick their assholes, that's his prerogative. What I find more wrong about that is your ideology that every one of those women would be offended by that - that's not your call, it's the call of each one of those women as an individual.

Regarding civil debates VS cursing out a religion, again, it depends on the individual. You can't have reasonable debates with some people because they're not willing to listen. (see Jurhum)

Their mind is already made up. If I was to get into a religious debate with them, and they were unable to see logic, it would be my prerogative if I was frustrated enough to simply say - "Fuck you and fuck your religion, you stupid piece of shit". At that point I'm not trying to win them over to my way of thinking any more - but hell, it makes me feel better that I'm pissing them off. You understand?

t the end of the day if one has the liberty to hurt someone with their words, who's to say that one doesnt have the right to hurt someone with their hands.

Who's to say? The LAW, for one.

I'm sorry but that last part that I just quoted was pretty dumb - and I know you are smarter than that. That, and the thing you said before when you equated freedom of speech to rape. I'm not sure that you really thought either of those things through before you posted them, in which case I implore you to think a bit more deeply.

Every individual has to learn a little something called tact - that means if you run your mouth at the wrong time around the wrong people, you risk consequences. But it's entirely subjective to the individual and the surroundings. That's life.

Trying to 'govern' that by telling people that they can't say certain things is completely the wrong way to go about it. And Islamic countries that do that are abusing their power and oppressing their people.

 

[Glockmatic]

You're in Toronto, do you know how many crazy homeless people are walking around Yonge street yelling out the most outrageous things at people walking by? Or the militant black guy who walks down Yonge and Dundas (at least thats where I see him) yelling at buildings, screaming about an upcoming war and pretending to shoot a gun at the windows? Would you want these people thrown in jail? Honestly, I sort of do! But they can't because we have (sort of) free speech in Canada. Our only line is the hate-speech thing, which doesn't apply to a criticism of an ideology. I personally think that Canada should have complete free speech, but hey that's my opinion.

Islam, or any religion, shouldn't have a special pass for criticism. A persons faith is not like their race, it can be changed like a persons political affiliation. If a conservative went up to me and called me a socialist-nazi, should I call him a liberalphobe? No, it's a difference of ideology and that person expressed his disdain to my opinion in a rather hostile way, but he has the right to disagree with me. Would I rather them discuss our differences in a civilized way? Of course, but people like to get to the point. Add to the fact that some people are stubborn and so dead set on their ideas that the other side just says "Fuck *insert whatever*"

 

[ImmortalTech]

^Yes, like yelling fire in a theater, cursing in school, bla bla.

I like the idea of creating a parody video of Obama and posting in on the internet, if I feel so. If I do that shit in Iran, I'm going to prison. Fuck, even in a supposedly secular country like Turkey, you can't make fun of some leader(s) and you can get prison time for it. Nobody is saying that freedom of speech and expression are perfect and unlimited in the US, but it's still a lot fucking better than in Muslim societies.

Also, by the way, I don't condone what Sarkozy is doing and what other countries are doing with these bans. But I can't stand the response (see Jurhum) from Muslims on these albeit very stupid and discriminatory laws.

Also (pt 2), it's futile to compare statistics on crime and domestic violence when it comes to Islamic societies. It takes a lot of courage for a women to admit to domestic violence in the US, but just try and think how hard it is for a woman in Iran? So, I laugh at any government statistic from those societies.

I completely agree with every single word u said

What I find more wrong about that is your ideology that every one of those women would be offended by that - that's not your call, it's the call of each one of those women as an individual.

I'm not saying that at all. I dont know where in my post u got that from. But if thats how i came off thats my mistake. I'm saying everyone has different thresholds for being offended and have varying degrees of reactions. And I'm not using that to justify peoples bullshit, I'm just saying thats how it is. So it seems we more or less agree there.

Regarding civil debates VS cursing out a religion, again, it depends on the individual. You can't have reasonable debates with some people because they're not willing to listen. (see Jurhum)

Their mind is already made up. If I was to get into a religious debate with them, and they were unable to see logic, it would be my prerogative if I was frustrated enough to simply say - "Fuck you and fuck your religion, you stupid piece of shit". At that point I'm not trying to win them over to my way of thinking any more - but hell, it makes me feel better that I'm pissing them off. You understand?

I agree.. there are people that u just cant talk to. Believe me, I know. Andd see ur saying u get to the point where ur annoyed and sick of debate so u get to a point where u say "fuck u, fuck ur religion" but thats a personal attack, u urself stated u say it just to piss them off cuz u feel theres no point in continuing the debate. That's different from publicly attacking a religion or an ideology.

Who's to say? The LAW, for one.

hmm, so what happens if the law says "you cant speak against the queen even if she's wrong". Do u respect that law? If ur picking and choosing which law and whose law u respect. Other people with other ideologies and other life experiences will do the same, and make completely different choices than u.

Every individual has to learn a little something called tact - that means if you run your mouth at the wrong time around the wrong people, you risk consequences. But it's entirely subjective to the individual and the surroundings. That's life.

I completely agree. I also agree with the point u brought up of 'Islamic countries' abusing their power and oppressing their people. The reason I put Islamic countries in quotes though is cuz I dont feel there's an Islamic Country that exists today. Just countries with so called 'muslim populations', with tyrants running the country oppressing people falsely using the banner of Islam.

You're in Toronto, do you know how many crazy homeless people are walking around Yonge street yelling out the most outrageous things at people walking by? Or the militant black guy who walks down Yonge and Dundas (at least thats where I see him) yelling at buildings, screaming about an upcoming war and pretending to shoot a gun at the windows? Would you want these people thrown in jail? Honestly, I sort of do! But they can't because we have (sort of) free speech in Canada. Our only line is the hate-speech thing, which doesn't apply to a criticism of an ideology. I personally think that Canada should have complete free speech, but hey that's my opinion.

I dont see how u can compare 'crazy homeless people' to a sane individual that goes out and public and starts saying shit like "FUCK ISLAM" or "FUCK CHRISTIANITY" or "FUCK ATHEISM".

Islam, or any religion, shouldn't have a special pass for criticism. A persons faith is not like their race, it can be changed like a persons political affiliation. If a conservative went up to me and called me a socialist-nazi, should I call him a liberalphobe? No, it's a difference of ideology and that person expressed his disdain to my opinion in a rather hostile way, but he has the right to disagree with me. Would I rather them discuss our differences in a civilized way? Of course, but people like to get to the point. Add to the fact that some people are stubborn and so dead set on their ideas that the other side just says "Fuck *insert whatever*"

Agreed


--

btw, I say some dumb shit, and I'm wrong a lot of the times just like everyone else, but I'd like to think that I try to live and I learn.. and believe me I understand peoples frustrations here with debating people of religious backgrounds.

peace

 

[Duke]

'I do not agree with Islam or their belief system, it makes no sense to me, I'm shocked that people actually study that religion and dont see the same inconsistencies I've found" ..vs.. "Fuck the Koran and all the camel jockey fucks that follow that bullshit"

"Till this day nobody has been able to explain the concept of the trinity, in a way that made sense to me" ..vs.. "Fuck Jesus and the Vatican"

While I immediately agree there is a large amount of unfounded islamophobia in the west and a lot of people who state their opinion in a very hostile way, there are also people that do the same in a non-hostile way. And they still receive the same torrent of hate from the muslim side.

Or let's talk about context. Let's go back to the Danish cartoonists and western political cartoons in general. Depicting prophet Muhammad with a bomb in his turban is not, relative to the context of political cartoons, more offensive than Uncle Sam with devil horns riding a cruise missile. It's the way political cartoons work.
And THAT is what personally aggravates me about a lot of muslims. They can't see the context. I can perfectly understand why muslims would protest certain things. Take our Dutch politician Geert Wilders for example. The man is a clown, I can't stand him, though I will defend to the death his right to say what he wants. I can understand why muslims would stage a protest against him, or Le Penn or people like that. Screaming death goes a bit too far but that's besides the point, I can comprehend why someone would be genuinely offended by people like that.




However, it's not only the extremist-rights that get the hate torrent. The people that make insightful statements about Islam and the West, valid political criticism, satarical cartoons, authors, they all have to undergo the hate torrent no matter how nuanced the things they say are. It's the constant self-victimisation that sickens me.

When in the west it's inappropriate to wear a tent and we say "don't do that", the muslims are being opressed and the west has to adapt.
When a Western woman in a muslim country (of course, not all yada yada I'm trying to keep it simple) wants to wear a bikini it's considered indecent and they expect the visitors to adapt.

It just doesn't fly both ways. A lot of muslims in the west (again, not all, probably not even a majority, but enough nonetheless) want to be treated differently, by law and indigenous common standards.

Which brings it full circle to what the other two main religions learned a long while ago:

They have to compromise.

 

[Duke]

Fuck, even in a supposedly secular country like Turkey, you can't make fun of some leader(s) and you can get prison time for it.

Don't underestimate Turkey. Their seperation of church and state is more strict than many western countries.

Turkey, Tunisia, and Tajikistan are Muslim-majority countries where the law prohibits the wearing of hijab in government buildings, schools, and universities. In Tunisia, women were banned from wearing hijab in state offices in 1981 and in the 1980s and 1990s more restrictions were put in place.The Turkish government recently attempted to lift a ban on Muslim headscarves at universities, but were overturned by the country's Constitutional Court.

(wiki)

The Turks' Constitutional Court is awesome. And the army is ALWAYS watching. The most recent Ataturk did really have the right idea. But yes, they're very tight on leader-bashing, hehe. Turkish secret police are total bastards.

Also (pt 2), it's futile to compare statistics on crime and domestic violence when it comes to Islamic societies. It takes a lot of courage for a women to admit to domestic violence in the US, but just try and think how hard it is for a woman in Iran? So, I laugh at any government statistic from those societies.

This is so true it's not even funny.

 

[Jurhum]

You guys are funny.

It's freedom of expression to express disdain towards Muslims but it's not freedom of expression when Muslims express disdain towards those whom insult our beloved prophet?

Let me see, what is this called? hmmm.. double standard, is it?

I mean to most Muslims, the prophet is more important to them than their own parents. What do you expect from them? a laugh?

This is ridiculous. So tell me, why is it a crime in some European countries to deny the holocaust? Is that not freedom of expression?

am not sure if immortaltech is Muslim or not, but his kowtowing is pathetic to be honest.

Any person who accepts the insults towards any belief or religion is pathetic regardless of it being Islam, Judaism or Christianity.

As for some of the posters, I dont even consider their opinion because it's bigoted and holds no merit. Their condescension to others is extremely annoying.

 

[Casey]

/\ You can't be serious. Surely you must see the difference.

So, according to you:

1. A simple drawing of Mohammad in a cartoon
2. A movie that sheds light on the VERY REAL topic of abuse against women in Islam (Theo Van Gogh's movie)
3. South Park making fun of the fact that you're not supposed to make fun of Mohammad
4. A FICTIONAL (and for the record, excellent) book entitled The Satanic Verses by Salman Rushdie

- all of those things are worth death threats, and in the case of #2 - killing the person who made it?

You think that's an appropriate response? Do you see any other religion doing that?

When someone says the slightest perceivably inflammatory thing about Islam, the fundamentalist do a LOT more than just "express disdain". You know this.

Their reaction is always making a mountain out of a molehill.

Everyone has the right to "express disdain" at something that might offend them. I've never said anything to the contrary. But that should be the bottom line.

If you take it further, in some cases as far as murder, and forcing people to go into hiding, you're an asshole. Because that shit is just ridiculous.

 

[S O F I]

Don't underestimate Turkey. Their seperation of church and state is more strict than many western countries.

I don't have the article now, but my post was alluding to a recent case where a facebook group or something was created making fun of some Turkish leader and the person was arrested for it.

 

[Jurhum]

I see action and reaction simple as that. What might look extreme to u might not be to others and vise versa. So respect is critical.
If you love your life don't try to insult and disrespect people.

 

[Jurhum]

^Yes, like yelling fire in a theater, cursing in school, bla bla.

I like the idea of creating a parody video of Obama and posting in on the internet, if I feel so. If I do that shit in Iran, I'm going to prison. Fuck, even in a supposedly secular country like Turkey, you can't make fun of some leader(s) and you can get prison time for it. Nobody is saying that freedom of speech and expression are perfect and unlimited in the US, but it's still a lot fucking better than in Muslim societies.

Also, by the way, I don't condone what Sarkozy is doing and what other countries are doing with these bans. But I can't stand the response (see Jurhum) from Muslims on these albeit very stupid and discriminatory laws.

Also (pt 2), it's futile to compare statistics on crime and domestic violence when it comes to Islamic societies. It takes a lot of courage for a women to admit to domestic violence in the US, but just try and think how hard it is for a woman in Iran? So, I laugh at any government statistic from those societies.

You grew up hating Muslims bro. It's only reasonable you would feel that way.

 

[Sebastian]

You know whats sad? Some people live in a bubble and totally fail to be able to look outside of it. You can put every valid argument on the table for them and even though they are aware of it, absolutely nothing can change their minds. Its just frustrating.

 

[ImmortalTech]

You guys are funny.

It's freedom of expression to express disdain towards Muslims but it's not freedom of expression when Muslims express disdain towards those whom insult our beloved prophet?

Let me see, what is this called? hmmm.. double standard, is it?

I mean to most Muslims, the prophet is more important to them than their own parents. What do you expect from them? a laugh?

This is ridiculous. So tell me, why is it a crime in some European countries to deny the holocaust? Is that not freedom of expression?

am not sure if immortaltech is Muslim or not, but his kowtowing is pathetic to be honest.

Any person who accepts the insults towards any belief or religion is pathetic regardless of it being Islam, Judaism or Christianity.

As for some of the posters, I dont even consider their opinion because it's bigoted and holds no merit. Their condescension to others is extremely annoying.

Could you please point out where 'I accepted insult towards any religion'?

and sorry for my pathetic kowtowing but my feeble mind is incapable of formulating such eloquently put ,intelligent responses such as urself.

Furthermore please let me know what it is about my posts that bothers u so much.

Are you mad cuz I dont agree with every single word u said? Or are u mad that I dont agree with the Jahiliyyah that is plaguing the Muslim Ummah? Or are u simply just mad cuz you didnt really read all the posts, something just rubbed u the wrong way so u had to attack me? Or is it just that ur mad that I actually have the capability to have a discussion with people with different beliefs instead of trying to 'fight' them, and that form of da'wah offends you somehow?


... and btw, what SOFI posted has nothing to do with him growing up hating muslims. I dont even know if thats true.. But what exactly did he say in that last post that was incorrect? Again, instead of debating the man in an intelligent manner, you attacked him. Did u simply have nothing to say, but felt that it's ur duty to say something cuz u didnt like what u were reading?


Fact: Today Muslims have more religious freedom to practice Islam to the best of their knowledge in the west than in any so called 'muslim country' in the world. If you disagree, name some for me that have more freedom.

 

[S O F I]

You grew up hating Muslims bro. It's only reasonable you would feel that way.

I didn't grow up hating Muslims, but I know what you're alluding to. Regardless, that still doesn't work logically because there are those who didn't grow up hating Muslims who agree with me. My statement doesn't have anti-Muslim bias.

 

[masta247]

If you love your life don't try to insult and disrespect people.

I feel threatened by a muslim!

 

[Duke]

lmao, didn't I say it?

Jurhum crawls into a total victim role. See, it's OUR fault we don't like a horde of angry muslims clamouring for death over a cartoon.


Get


the


fuck



out.


I'm done with this. Well done, Jurhum. You've made me hate your religion and it's followers just that little bit more. Chapeau.

 

[Duke]

Sometimes...more than a thousand words. And this one is spot on:

 

[Jurhum]

Could you please point out where 'I accepted insult towards any religion'?

and sorry for my pathetic kowtowing but my feeble mind is incapable of formulating such eloquently put ,intelligent responses such as urself.

Furthermore please let me know what it is about my posts that bothers u so much.

Are you mad cuz I dont agree with every single word u said? Or are u mad that I dont agree with the Jahiliyyah that is plaguing the Muslim Ummah? Or are u simply just mad cuz you didnt really read all the posts, something just rubbed u the wrong way so u had to attack me? Or is it just that ur mad that I actually have the capability to have a discussion with people with different beliefs instead of trying to 'fight' them, and that form of da'wah offends you somehow?


... and btw, what SOFI posted has nothing to do with him growing up hating muslims. I dont even know if thats true.. But what exactly did he say in that last post that was incorrect? Again, instead of debating the man in an intelligent manner, you attacked him. Did u simply have nothing to say, but felt that it's ur duty to say something cuz u didnt like what u were reading?


Fact: Today Muslims have more religious freedom to practice Islam to the best of their knowledge in the west than in any so called 'muslim country' in the world. If you disagree, name some for me that have more freedom.

Your kowtowing and accepting the fact that their opinion in insulting the prophet is perfectly fine for you. Read your responses.

Muslims have more freedom to practice Islamic countries. Don't kid yourself. Do you see all these laws put forth baning hijab and baning the minarets. And trust me soon enough, they'll ban masjids because they will claim they are stations for terrorists.

For me, anyone who thinks insulting the Prophet is a freedom of expression will never be acceptable. Simple as that. If you insult the prophet of the second largest religion in the world then be prepared to accept the consequences because there are men that will defend their religion if it meant their lives.

 

[Jurhum]

I didn't grow up hating Muslims, but I know what you're alluding to. Regardless, that still doesn't work logically because there are those who didn't grow up hating Muslims who agree with me. My statement doesn't have anti-Muslim bias.

Trust me, it does have its effect.