Where is Jesus?

[Illuminattile]

I'm sure you probably know all this, since we've discussed this before:

Cornelius Tacitus, a respected first-century Roman historian, wrote: “The name Christian is derived from Christ, whom the procurator Pontius Pilate had executed in the reign of Tiberius.”

Tacitus' work usually came from Roman archives, but occassionally he used other secondary sources. The fact that Tacitus called Pilate "the procurator" instead of "the prefect", as the Pilate Inscription describes him, and that he referred to Jesus as "Christ" suggests that his sources were Christian, not Roman. No Roman archives mentioning Christ have been found.

Suetonius and Pliny the Younger, other Roman writers of the time, also referred to Christ.

Suetonius wrote of "Chrestus", which wasn't a reference to Christ. Pliny the Younger simply described the beliefs of some arrested Christians. He doesn't mention anything that suggests Jesus Christ existed.

Flavius Josephus, a first-century Jewish historian, wrote of James, whom he identified as “the brother of Jesus, who was called Christ.”

Josephus' writings are heavily disputed. His description of Jesus (from the passage you haven't quoted) conflicts with his own beliefs. It's suggested that the passage may have been corrupted by Christians. In the passage you have quoted, the phrase "who was called Christ" is disputed, as is the idea that the "Jesus" mentioned is the Biblical Jesus.

 

[Jokerman]

Name me one man that i dont believe existed that had a fraction of the effect he had on people as Jesus did.

Because ppl believe he was God! You can't separate that from him.

 

[Tru Principle]

Because ppl believe he was God! You can't separate that from him.

Homie.. I have nothing to provide.. so if you still feel up to it.. please inform me of the idea that Jesus didn't exist!

 

[Jokerman]

Teck, the problem is that u rely on religious sites for your arguments. You don't really know it yourself, so you have to hope your sources have covered all the bases. And often they haven't, and you're left hanging.

 

[Glockmatic]

most of the historians quotes he cited were actually forgings by Eusebius, who admitted it

"I have repeated whatever may rebound to the glory, and suppressed all that could tend to the disgrace of our religion" (Chp. 31, Book 12 of Prae Paratio Evangelica).

 

[Jokerman]

Homie.. I have nothing to provide.. so if you still feel up to it.. please inform me of the idea that Jesus didn't exist!

Well, for one, Illuminattile just got rid of the evidence of non-Chrisitian verification of his existence.

The biography of Jesus is almost identical to the older Pagan myths of Osiris, Dionysus, Attis, Adonis, Mithras, etc. Why should we consider their stories as fables, yet come across essentially the same story told in a Jewish context and believe it to be the biography of a carpenter from Bethlehem?

Here's a good read to start at:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

"Some people ( like Teck) actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support their hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis."

 

[Tru Principle]

Well, for one, Illuminattile just got rid of the evidence of non-Chrisitian verification of his existence.

The biography of Jesus is almost identical to the older Pagan myths of Osiris, Dionysus, Attis, Adonis, Mithras, etc. Why should we consider their stories as fables, yet come across essentially the same story told in a Jewish context and believe it to be the biography of a carpenter from Bethlehem?

Here's a good read to start at:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/exist.htm

"Some people ( like Teck) actually believe that just because so much voice and ink has spread the word of a character named Jesus throughout history, that this must mean that he actually lived. This argument simply does not hold. The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support their hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis."

I watched a national geographic special called "The rivals of Jesus" and basically.. they showed what you just said... Other so called "Messiahs" who had shockingly similar if not.. identical life stories as Jesus.. but i'm going to read this site and see what I can find.

peace

 

[TecK NeeX]

Because ppl believe he was God! You can't separate that from him.

But he never existed, you're not making any sense, think about it!

Teck, the problem is that u rely on religious sites for your arguments. You don't really know it yourself, so you have to hope your sources have covered all the bases. And often they haven't, and you're left hanging.

I DO know it myself, my sources however have nothing to do with the subject being discussed as long as the info is fact, thats all that matters. I often use sources and quote supporters of the subject that i'm challenging. Narrowminded people like you Jokerman will dismiss anything that comes from religious sourcesbecause of the fact that the information comes from a man who holds belief in God.

I'm sure you probably know all this, since we've discussed this before:


Tacitus' work usually came from Roman archives, but occassionally he used other secondary sources. The fact that Tacitus called Pilate "the procurator" instead of "the prefect", as the Pilate Inscription describes him, and that he referred to Jesus as "Christ" suggests that his sources were Christian, not Roman. No Roman archives mentioning Christ have been found.


Suetonius wrote of "Chrestus", which wasn't a reference to Christ. Pliny the Younger simply described the beliefs of some arrested Christians. He doesn't mention anything that suggests Jesus Christ existed.


Josephus' writings are heavily disputed. His description of Jesus (from the passage you haven't quoted) conflicts with his own beliefs. It's suggested that the passage may have been corrupted by Christians. In the passage you have quoted, the phrase "who was called Christ" is disputed, as is the idea that the "Jesus" mentioned is the Biblical Jesus.

I actually didn't know most of that, But "heavely disputed", "suggestions" and "may have beens" type of arguments just doesn't do it for me, they're open to debate, this topic really doesn't interest me anyway

 

[TecK NeeX]

"Some people ( like Teck)

The number of people who believe or write about something or the professional degrees they hold say nothing at all about fact. Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support their hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis."

There is record of the existence of Julius Caesar. Historians wrote about him. The only "evidence" for the existence of Jesus comes from Christian documents

So much for that argument Illumin. haha Julius didn't exist after all, Facts derive out of evidence, not from hearsay, not from hubris scholars, and certainly not from faithful believers. Regardless of the position or admiration held by a scholar, believer, or priest, if he or she cannot support their hypothesis with good evidence, then it can only remain a hypothesis.

 

[TecK NeeX]

http://www.[b]nobeliefs[/b].com/exist.htm

Jokerman, the problem is that u rely on nobelief sites for your arguments. You don't really know it yourself, so you have to hope your sources have covered all the bases. And often they haven't, and you're left hanging.

 

[Glockmatic]

We know Julius Caesar existed because there are records of his actions when he was alive. There are records of his military campaign north of Rome, there are records of his actions in the senate, we have his books that he wrote, and we have the records of his assasination, while there are no records of Jesus during the time he was suppose to be alive.

 

[fields316_2000]

Thank you TECK ~! Jesus was recorded to have been specifically against Julius Ceasar- how can jesus be fake if rome recognizes him?

According to all Gospel accounts, Jesus was buried by Joseph of Arimathea, variously described in the Gospels as a prominent person and supporter of Jesus. He is not otherwise mentioned. That Joseph went to Pilate secretly because of fear of the Jews is, typically, said only by John (19:38). Also, only in John, Nicodemus joins him, bringing a large mixture of spices for anointing Jesus' body for burial. The other three Gospels do not recount such preparation (19:40), for at least according to Mark and Luke, the women who discovered the tomb empty intended to anoint Jesus' body. John alone notes that Jesus was buried in a garden tomb near where he had been crucified (19:41-42), supporting the tradition of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which commemorates the site of the crucifixion as well as the tomb of Jesus.
http://www.frmanning.com/John/John Ch19/comjohn19,38-42.htm
the above link has a pic of the area listed as where jesus was crucified and buried..where a church now sits.

here's a link inside the actual tomb you guys say that is so hard to find..
http://www.dallas.net/~dchancey/tomb.html

so we have the ability to find dinosaur bones a million years old, space equipment that can search other planets for life, but can NOT find the body of jesus christ?

 

[Jokerman]

Unlike Jesus, ppl who lived in Julius Caesar's time and knew him wrote about him. That's not hearsay.

Wrong again, Teck.

 

[fields316_2000]

What are you talking about joker? people that wrote about jesus listed it in the bible - historians list it in encyclopedias...so what are you talking about?

 

[TecK NeeX]

Unlike Jesus, ppl who lived in Julius Caesar's time and knew him wrote about him. That's not hearsay.

Wrong again, Teck.

Neither is that evidence, Your link says "Facts derive out of evidence", People writing about him is not evidence. He could be an admired character imagined by a man who decided to write about him.

You do realize that the very same criteria through which you dismiss the evidence of Jesus' existence could be used to dismiss about 90% of what we know about the ancient world right?

 

[Glockmatic]

Jesus was recorded to have been specifically against Julius Ceasar- how can jesus be fake if rome recognizes him?

Against Julius Caesar? What? Rome didn't reconize Jesus until Constantine (a Christian himself) 300 years later. Don't take the Bible as historical fact, it was written many many many years later

 

[Glockmatic]

Neither is that evidence, Your link says "Facts derive out of evidence", People writing about him is not evidence. He could be an admired character imagined by a man who decided to write about him.

You do realize that the very same criteria through which you dismiss the evidence of Jesus' existence could be used to dismiss about 90% of what we know about the ancient world right?

We know Julius Caesar existed because there are records of his actions when he was alive. There are records of his military campaign north of Rome, there are records of his actions in the senate, we have his books that he wrote, and we have the records of his assasination, while there are no records of Jesus during the time he was suppose to be alive.

.....

 

[Jokerman]

Forget about the records, Glock, that could have all been made up. Teck, unlike Jesus, we have physical evidence that Julius Caesar existed, as we do 90% of what we know about the ancient world. So, no, the same criteria can't be used.

 

[Think_ThuGLiFE]

jesus is comin soon , 2 4give all ur sins.

 

[TecK NeeX]

Forget about the records, Glock, that could have all been made up. Teck, unlike Jesus, we have physical evidence that Julius Caesar existed, as we do 90% of what we know about the ancient world. So, no, the same criteria can't be used.

Whats the physical evidence of Julius? As far as i know almost all historical figures are known by document evidence not physical proof.