The David Irving Holocaust Trial

[Illuminattile]

Irving Holocaust trial under way

British historian David Irving is going on trial in the Austrian capital, Vienna, accused of denying the Holocaust took place.

The charges relate to a speech and an interview he gave in Austria in 1989 in which he denied the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz.

Mr Irving has told the BBC that he will plead guilty.

Holocaust denial is a criminal offence in Austria which carries a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison.

Mr Irving was arrested in November when he went to Austria to give a lecture to a far-right student fraternity.

Denying the Holocaust

He was stopped by police as he was driving on a motorway in the south of the country and has been held in custody since then.

In a letter to the BBC from his prison cell, Mr Irving said some of his views on the gas chambers had changed.

At the court on Monday morning shortly before the trial got under way, the BBC's Ben Brown asked Mr Irving if he now accepted the Holocaust happened.

"A terrible tragedy happened," he replied.

Asked if six million Jews died, he said "millions of people died".

He also said there was "evidence that some gas chambers did exist".

What are your feelings on this? Do you agree with it being a crime to deny the Holocaust? It seems pretty obvious that Irving's an anti-Semite - and I imagine that's the case with most Holocaust deniers - but should it be a crime to 'just' deny the Holocaust? Hypothetically, if someone denied the Holocaust without taking an anti-Semitic approach, would you consider that a crime? Will it be a crime in the future to deny that Arab terrorists blew up the World Trade Center?

 

[Sebastian]

yes, i agree denying the holocaust being a crime!

i dont know exactly how to explain but i think what happened in WW2 was so incredible bad and unhuman that everyone who denies it should be punished.

i know its hard to draw the line between WW2 and other events in the past which were awful, too. but i think WW2 is outstanding.

Hypothetically, if someone denied the Holocaust without taking an anti-Semitic approach, would you consider that a crime?

yes i would. he/she deserves a different punishment though.

Will it be a crime in the future to deny that Arab terrorists blew up the World Trade Center?

no, like i said before, WW2 is outstanding and i feel like this is the only event which deserves a punishment for just denying it.

 

[Shahin]

I think it's rediculous to punish a man for his thoughts and opinions. When it becomes a crime to question anything we're told we should begin to worry because the step to a brainwashed society isn't big. What year is this again, 1984?

 

[Shahin]

i dont know exactly how to explain but i think what happened in WW2 was so incredible bad and unhuman that everyone who denies it should be punished.

Why limit it to the Holocaust then? Why not ban the questioning of all genocides in history? What's the difference, weren't they all "bad" and "unhuman"?

 

[Duke]

I disagree with it being punished. Any person to deny what happened back then is making good enough a fool out of themselves already.

Maybe the people that deny such things should be taken on a mandatory trip to Auschwitz and Dachau. See for themselves. I remember reading an article in a Dutch magazine a while ago, about 4 Dutch youths (16-18), which had "right wing" opinions on foreigners etc, that went (with the magazine's people) to Auschwitz to see it in person. They were obviously impressed (in a bad way) with it all. They weren't expecting it to be that big and that..ghastly, really.

I think that should be done. Not hold a speech about morals and values, but make them see, see and feel what happened then. Show them the images American forces made when they discovered the camps. Show them the pictures of starving humans, mass graves. Show them the insitutions for mass genocide. Show them and they will shut up.

 

[The.Menace]

There are a couple of faults in this BBC text, first of all, you can go to prision for 20 years and yes Austria has the strictes laws against nazis worldwide. Second, "Holocaust denial is a criminal offence" is untrue, it's just a crime if you do it in a public way that can reach a lot of people and should prevent people from spreadin their lies and nazi bullshit to the youth. Third, he didn't only deny the holocaust once, he said way more things like "Hitler actually cared for the jews and did protect them" and "the crimes commited in the 'Reichskristallnacht' were done by masked people tryin to make the nazis look bad", he denied the existance of gas chambers as well as the fact that millions of people died.....etc etc etc.

Seriously, this isn't an opinion. An opinion would be to say "The holocaust wasn't as bad as they make it look like these days". That would be an opinion but to deny that all these crimes happend, after all those proves we have - after all this went on for ages, that ain't no opinion....

I'd like to add, to compare the WTC with the WWII is silly. No disrepsect to those that died in the towers, they certainley didn't deserve death, but compared to WWI this was a joke, nothing. More then 50 million people died in WWII and as we know the nazis were to a major part responsible for that war - can you blame the people if they don't want that mentality back?

 

[Flipmo]

Maybe we should deny what happened to the Chiniese during WW2, or what the Holocaust that took place against the Armenians? They don't matter though right. We can forget about those and not care.

 

[The.Menace]

Would you mind explainin what you try to say FlipMo cause I don't get it.

 

[Flipmo]

lol. Ya it does look fucked up. Sorry, I'm in class and I'm tired as hell. lol

Anyways, I'm just saying that atrocities were not just commited against Jews during WW2, alot of people suffered. For example, the 'forgotten' Chinese Holocaust; the Japanese slaughtered as many as 30 million Filipinos, Vietnamese, Cambodians, Indonesians, etc and at least 20 million of them ethnic Chinese. Yet, we forget about this.

Ask anybody on the streets if they've heard of the Chiniese Holocaust during WW2, they'd probably look at you with a blank stare.

 

[The.Menace]

I agree that other atrocities are overlooked but seriously, that's simply not the point of the thread or the trial.

Isn't it that in Japan teachers still don't teach about the crimes that their country commited in WW2? I read about that and seriously, if you compare those to attitudes - Japan tryin to deny their crimes and Austria more then admittin crimes, sendin people to jail for denyin the past - I rather go with attitude #2 baby.

 

[DrugBa11ad]

Isn't it that in Japan teachers still don't teach about the crimes that their country commited in WW2? I read about that and seriously, if you compare those to attitudes - Japan tryin to deny their crimes and Austria more then admittin crimes, sendin people to jail for denyin the past - I rather go with attitude #2 baby.

Like the United States really doesn't teach what IT has done to a huge amount of third world latin american countries. Or what it really did to the native Americans. Or what it really still does to minorities in this country. So Japan is NO different then the US, or any other country that doesn't want you to know the bullshit.

And fuck Austria if they want to SEND SOMEONE TO JAIL FOR THIER OPINION. That is ridiculous. And even though I disagree with him, I give him props for standing up for his opinion.

Oh, and whoever said it was some 1984 shit, I was thinking the same damn thing man. "2+2 = 5" right man?

 

[Khaled]

damn... whatever happened to the freedom of speech most of you were so proud of a few threads ago...

 

[Illuminattile]

That is ridiculous. And even though I disagree with him, I give him props for standing up for his opinion.

Except he's not standing up for his opinion. He's changed his mind now that he's faced with a jail sentence.

 

[The.Menace]

And fuck Austria if they want to SEND SOMEONE TO JAIL FOR THIER OPINION.

We have a little difference here with the definition of opinion. Would you please define for me what an opinion is....

because for me an opinion is if you look at something from different point of views. Some say weed is good, some say it's dangerous. That's an opinion, because both a valid points and it depens on you opinion (the point of view) if you care more about one part or another part.....anyway, an opinion always is based on something that has at least a lil truth to it.
If you say something that can not be proven, it's a fantasy. Like if I say "this universe is in the bag of a old man". Ok, this is a strange fantasy. If a fantasy can be proven wrong, if there is no truth to it at all, it's a lie and nothing else.

To deny what happend in WWII is not an opinion and it's ridiculous to say so.

 

[Shahin]

We have a little difference here with the definition of opinion. Would you please define for me what an opinion is....

because for me an opinion is if you look at something from different point of views. Some say weed is good, some say it's dangerous. That's an opinion, because both a valid points and it depens on you opinion (the point of view) if you care more about one part or another part.....anyway, an opinion always is based on something that has at least a lil truth to it.
If you say something that can not be proven, it's a fantasy. Like if I say "this universe is in the bag of a old man". Ok, this is a strange fantasy. If a fantasy can be proven wrong, if there is no truth to it at all, it's a lie and nothing else.

To deny what happend in WWII is not an opinion and it's ridiculous to say so.

If a historian look at all the evidence for the holocaust, examine it and come to the conclusion that it doesn't seem plausible, surely that's his opinion? An opinion doesn't necesarilly have to be sensible.

 

[The.Menace]

Come on man. We have the buildings. We burried bodys. We have 1000s of people that saw what happend. We have photos, we have videos. Come to the conclusion it didn't happend? That hitler was actually protectin the jews sounds plausible for you?

Anyway, dude just got 3 years.

 

[Shahin]

Come on man. We have the buildings. We burried bodys. We have 1000s of people that saw what happend. We have photos, we have videos. Come to the conclusion it didn't happend? That hitler was actually protectin the jews sounds plausible for you?

It doesn't sound the least bit plausible to me, but we cant force people to think the same way we do.

 

[Illuminattile]

If a historian look at all the evidence for the holocaust, examine it and come to the conclusion that it doesn't seem plausible, surely that's his opinion? An opinion doesn't necesarilly have to be sensible.

Everything Irving has written has been criticised for inaccuracies and misrepresentations. When opinions as controversial as his as unfounded, they should be exposed as incorrect. Maybe he shouldn't be locked up, but it should certainly be made clear that he is wrong.

It doesn't sound the least bit plausible to me, but we cant force people to think the same way we do.

But should we protect people from being exposed to hateful and potentially incitive 'opinions'?

 

[Shahin]

Everything Irving has written has been criticised for inaccuracies and misrepresentations. When opinions as controversial as his as unfounded, they should be exposed as incorrect. Maybe he shouldn't be locked up, but it should certainly be made clear that he is wrong.


But should we protect people from being exposed to hateful and potentially incitive 'opinions'?

He should be exposed for whatever inaccuracies are in his writings yeah. Lies should always be exposed, I'm not disagreeing with you there.
The only opinions I think should be prohibited from being expressed are those who promote violence towards another group of human beings. Other than that, we should let all opinions be expressed and evaluated by the people. Anything that disagrees with the official stance can be regarded as politically incitive. In a democracy, politics are a tool for the people, and we shouldn't limit what people may choose for themselves.

 

[Valeoz]

Did you know Winston Churchill believed in a world-wide Jewish conspiracy? He actually wrote an article on it. Hitler would loved to read something like that.

This is probably irrelavant but I just wanted to say something.