Once again...

[Jokerman]

i cannot find any information that mentions that Col. William C. Church and Gen. George Wingate were members of the klan.

Another Michael Moore concoction. Since the NRA was founded the same year the Klan became illegal, to Moore that's proof the NRA was founded by Klan members. Oh, and because at least one member of the Klan was also a member of the NRA, that's further proof. I'm sure at least one member of the Klan has worked for the government or been a member of a church. Does that mean the government and that church was founded by the Klan?

By the way, the man who passed the law making the Klan illegal later became the president of the NRA, Ulysses S. Grant. What a smoke screen that was.

 

[PuffnScruff]

hmmm, so if i were to think like moore...since robert byrd, west virginia senator, is a member of the kkk and the democratic party, that would make moore a kkk member since he is associated with byrd as both being democrats.

moore proof that the democrats are evil

 

[Duke]

The NRA isn't really the problem, but it's indicative of the gun culture. Puff, you asked me what the gun culture is. Well, duh. In the States there are businesswomen that after work go to the shooting range and shoot guns as if they're ordering takeout. There is no Western country that has embraced firearms as part of their "culture" like the States.

And where it gets tricky is when the government allowes any John Dick to walk in a gun store and just buy a weapon with minimal ID. Now the NRA can cry foul, but the NRA is made up of gun enthusiasts that know guns and are often enough responsible with them. The problem is the people who aren't responsible with them. They are the danger. They are the folks that leave firearms in an unlocked dresser for the 16 year old son to sneak to school. Now there are plenty of things people use unresponsibly that can cause serious problems, but practically anything you can think of has some type of function in everyday life.

I mean, someone who is irresponsible with a car is dangerous too, of course. But a car is a means of transport. Getting from A to B. A gun is a means to kill. You move your index finger and 10 grams of lead flies towards whatever you're aiming at. A gun has no day-to-day usefulness. Let's be honest here, if you run the risk to get robbed, shot, beat, raped every fucking day , you need to move or find a new profession. A gun is a not a toy, a gun is not a means to relax. A gun is something you use to take life.

And when a government makes such things readily available to the public, for whatever dated reason (as if those couple of Glocks and hunting rifles will stop the military should there be a coup or whatever), somehow I can not help but think that is a very bad idea. And when that is supported by the immense amount of gun-related crimes and accidents that happen in the United States as opposed to the rest of the Western world, I'm just very glad I don't live there.

And as long as the States as a country, as a society do not recognize this problem, things like Columbine, Virginia Tech will continue to happen. It will not cease. Nutjobs are everywhere, but when you give the nutjob easy access to a gun you're being an idiotic government.


The only thing I am really curious for....let's say you (Jokerman, Puff, whoever defends the gun culture in this thread) are 42 years old. You have a good job, a loving family and you're thrilled that your eldest son is accepted into his university of choice. On his last week in high school, the school loser, the kid that always used to get bullied, walks into the lobby with a shotgun and shoots and kills 10 students, one of which your son...

I would like to see if you're still waving your flags and screaming "freedom to shoot" then.

 

[Jokerman]

A gun is a means to kill. A gun is something you use to take life.

A gun is a tool used to defend life. Guns save more lives than take them. If a car was used to kill more people than to get them from place to place, you would be saying, "a car is a means to kill. A car is something you use to take life." But when the opposite is true about guns, you simply ignore and deny it because it doesn't seem right to look at it that way. But statistics can't be denied.

Let's be honest here, if you run the risk to get robbed, shot, beat, raped every fucking day, you need to move or find a new profession.

No, not every day. Any day. It just takes one day to get killed. Do you have a fire extinguisher in the house? Is it because there's a risk of a fire every fucking day? Then you need to stop cooking ever again and not live in a house made of wood.

You have a good job, a loving family and you're thrilled that your eldest son is accepted into his university of choice. On his last week in high school, the school loser, the kid that always used to get bullied, walks into the lobby with a shotgun and shoots and kills 10 students, one of which your son...I would like to see if you're still waving your flags and screaming "freedom to shoot" then.

First, my son would be trained to use a gun and that would reduce the likelihood that 10 students would get killed that day, let alone him. Unless, of course, people who think like you continue to have their way by disarming law-abiding citizens in high-risk places like schools. High-risk because the psychos know no one has a gun there. You're the one who should think about how you would feel if your son didn't have a chance to defend himself because he was unarmed due to your mind-set...

I would like to see if you're still burning flags and screaming "no right to defend yourself."

 

[Jokerman]

In the States there are businesswomen that after work go to the shooting range and shoot guns as if they're ordering takeout.

You're right, that takeout food could kill you it's so bad. These business women order takeout as if they're going to the shooting range to shoot guns.

Too bad none of these business women were at Virginia Tech that day.

 

[Sebastian]

A gun is a tool used to defend life.

Thats hilarious! Would you like to tell us that guns were invented for "defensive use"?

 

[Jokerman]

Thats hilarious! Would you like to tell us that guns were invented for "defensive use"?

I'm sure the person who invented it had the mechanics of it on his mind, not the offensive or defensive uses of it. He did it to do it, like all inventors.

But my point was that a gun is merely a tool that in the right hands is used to defend life. It's not a killing machine with a life of its own, as Duke seems to believe. Because that's the ridiculous implications of his definition.

 

[Devious]

you made some damn good points in rebuttal to Duke, Jokerman, and i can't say that i support his stance completely, but let me ask you this: if a gun is used to defend life, how exactly do you defend it? if some gun wielding maniac is going to take your life, how do you defend yourself from this gun wielding maniac? by taking his life before he takes yours. so whether it's used to defend life or maliciously take it, a gun has no other purpose but to kill and wound.

and the whole idea that you need the right to bear arms to defend yourself is laughable. no other western countries have the right to carry and own guns in their constitutions, but you don't see Canadians dying by the masses because the citizens are unarmed, do you? obviously gun control or even banning guns outright won't solve the problem, but i hardly think people NEED guns to defend themselves on a daily basis, unless they are living in a legitimate war zone.

 

[PuffnScruff]

The NRA isn't really the problem, but it's indicative of the gun culture. Puff, you asked me what the gun culture is. Well, duh. In the States there are businesswomen that after work go to the shooting range and shoot guns as if they're ordering takeout. There is no Western country that has embraced firearms as part of their "culture" like the States. .

gun ranges aren't as busy as you think they are. i have to wonder if you are basing your opinions of the u.s. based on what you see in the media? i still dont see what you mean by part of our culture. i mean sure its in american movies and tv shows, but....guns are in many tv shows and movies and sometimes fit the context of the film. its not like we have county picnics where everyone brings their firearms and we shoot wild like its mexico.

And where it gets tricky is when the government allowes any John Dick to walk in a gun store and just buy a weapon with minimal ID. Now the NRA can cry foul, but the NRA is made up of gun enthusiasts that know guns and are often enough responsible with them. The problem is the people who aren't responsible with them. They are the danger. They are the folks that leave firearms in an unlocked dresser for the 16 year old son to sneak to school. Now there are plenty of things people use unresponsibly that can cause serious problems, but practically anything you can think of has some type of function in everyday life..

there are waiting periods and back ground checks you have to go through before you can purchase a gun legally in the u.s.

I mean, someone who is irresponsible with a car is dangerous too, of course. But a car is a means of transport. Getting from A to B. A gun is a means to kill. You move your index finger and 10 grams of lead flies towards whatever you're aiming at. A gun has no day-to-day usefulness. Let's be honest here, if you run the risk to get robbed, shot, beat, raped every fucking day , you need to move or find a new profession. A gun is a not a toy, a gun is not a means to relax. A gun is something you use to take life. .

any person with the means and intent to kill will do so with whatever is available to them. a gun is just easier.

And when a government makes such things readily available to the public, for whatever dated reason (as if those couple of Glocks and hunting rifles will stop the military should there be a coup or whatever), somehow I can not help but think that is a very bad idea. And when that is supported by the immense amount of gun-related crimes and accidents that happen in the United States as opposed to the rest of the Western world, I'm just very glad I don't live there. .

our govt doesnt make them readily available. the govt does not manufacture and distribute these guns or force people to buy them. yes look at the amount of gun related crimes. look at the stats for the countries like the uk and australia where there cun related crimes went up after they issued bans on guns in those countries. look at the number of gun related crimes in the u.s. where there are ban on guns and see how their crime rates are higher than the states that allow citizens to carry.

The only thing I am really curious for....let's say you (Jokerman, Puff, whoever defends the gun culture in this thread) are 42 years old. You have a good job, a loving family and you're thrilled that your eldest son is accepted into his university of choice. On his last week in high school, the school loser, the kid that always used to get bullied, walks into the lobby with a shotgun and shoots and kills 10 students, one of which your son...

I would like to see if you're still waving your flags and screaming "freedom to shoot" then.

i'm not going to say freedom to shoot but i agree with jokerman said on the subject
i would still be a supporter of the right to carry. because at the end of the day, the reality of it would be, that it is not the guns fault for such an incident. i would blame the shooter, his parents, and probably the school.

you wont hear in the media and late night news about how students who are law abiding citizens that have concealed licenses just happen to have their firearm in their car on campus of their college, when they saw a man walking towards a building. that man would have went into a classroom and killed his teacher and who knows who else but didnt beecause he was stopped by law abiding citizens who own firearms. you never hear about these stories in the news do you? they happen often too.

 

[the_pharmacist]

Rest in peace.

 

[Duke]

Jokerman advocates total armed society. I think he's the only one that honestly thinks that's a good idea.

I stand by the facts. 95% of the school shootings happen in the good ol' USA. If freedom to shoot is worth that to you, by all means, enjoy your guns.

 

[S O F I]

you wont hear in the media and late night news about how students who are law abiding citizens that have concealed licenses just happen to have their firearm in their car on campus of their college, when they saw a man walking towards a building. that man would have went into a classroom and killed his teacher and who knows who else but didnt beecause he was stopped by law abiding citizens who own firearms. you never hear about these stories in the news do you? they happen often too.

Do you have any evidence of this? I'd be curious to read about these instances. I often dream of shoving my licensed gun in an unknown gunman's face as he approaches the law building. Sometimes I wake up wet, sometimes not.

 

[Jokerman]

Jokerman advocates total armed society.

Yes, I want toddlers armed. And elderly librarians.

 

[_carmi]

Short question for the WoW heads: What is to blame?

a.) America's gun legislation?

or

b.) America's gun obession?

both. but it goes more deeply than that. it's deeper than laws. it's society itself that creates insane people like this. most of the shootings did occur in the USA but we had 3 shootings in Montreal and there's no gun obsession and no guns permitted. so how do you explain those 3 shootings? all 3 shooters have similar characteristics to Virginia's shooter. society itself is the problem. individualism. i won't bring up media violence because that is another debate. society creates these fucked up people.

 

[Kareem]

both. but it goes more deeply than that. it's deeper than laws. it's society itself that creates insane people like this. most of the shootings did occur in the USA but we had 3 shootings in Montreal and there's no gun obsession and no guns permitted. so how do you explain those 3 shootings? all 3 shooters have similar characteristics to Virginia's shooter. society itself is the problem. individualism. i won't bring up media violence because that is another debate. society creates these fucked up people.

I can agree with that. This is the thing every time someone shoots up a school or some shit the first thing thats yacked about is BAN GUNS!!! Guns aren't the damn problem. A ban on all firearms isn't gonna stop violent crime or school killings. Carmi has a point society is a big blame. In this country millions of people own fire arms how many of them use them in violent crimes or killing sprees? not even 5% its a rare occurrence which is blown up by the media an the bleeding heart liberals and tree hugger's. Don't like guns fine don't buy one the odds you will be shot or involved in such a crime are slim to none you have a better chance of being in a car accident. once again I say tougher sentencing needs to be enacted.

 

[PuffnScruff]

Jokerman advocates total armed society. I think he's the only one that honestly thinks that's a good idea.

I stand by the facts. 95% of the school shootings happen in the good ol' USA. If freedom to shoot is worth that to you, by all means, enjoy your guns.

you stand by the facts but are you ignoring the fact that almost all of those shooters involved in the schools shootings were on and off medication?


Sofi, yes i can show you articles about this. i have to find them. i had some saved on my other computer but thats packed up and its beend a hell of a week and will continue to be busy, get at me on aim sometime and ill try and get it for you

 

[Duke]

you stand by the facts but are you ignoring the fact that almost all of those shooters involved in the schools shootings were on and off medication?


Sofi, yes i can show you articles about this. i have to find them. i had some saved on my other computer but thats packed up and its beend a hell of a week and will continue to be busy, get at me on aim sometime and ill try and get it for you

The shooters didn't use bottles of pills to bash brains in, now did they?

When you give guns to the public, there are bound to be a whole lot of irreponsible gun owners. Then this shit happens. It's legislation, it's culture, it's yeehaw-attitude. You Americans will be damned before "they" take "your" guns away.

Fine. Get shot then.

 

[PuffnScruff]

did the point about these shooters being on heavy medication go over your head?

you keep proving all you know about america and the citizens is by what you see in the media

 

[Duke]

Dude, this has jack all to do with media. Check whereever you want, the lion share of these school shooting incidents involving young kids happen in the States. Now I don't care what kind of reason you concoct to excuse these figures, but it happens there. Not here. Not in France, not in Italy, not in Poland, but in the States.

And to respond more directly to your medication arguments...seeing that a lot of Americans are fooled by the pharmaceutic industry and are on some type of pills or potions, you think it's a good idea to make firearms available to a people of which a third is on some kind of drug, that's not even considering the fact that humans are basically assholes and will use any excuse to put a dent in each other's head.

I'm not saying getting rid of the guns will solve crime. That's ludicrous. But as a government you don't have to make it easier for your people to off each other.

 

[PuffnScruff]

i know this has nothing to do with the media. i was saying that YOUR world view of america and its people are obviously based off of what you see in the media.

i did not concoct any excuse at all. i was stating the truth. the common factor in these shootings.