OBAMA clinches Democratic Presidential Nomination.

[S O F I]

well at least you acknowledge that you live in a country where the leaders think you're too stupid to know what's best for you. and you missed the point SOFI. it's not how many times the electoral college has gone against the popular vote, it's the fact that they even have that option at all. i mean seriously, if it doesn't come down to the popular vote, then what is the point of voting in the first place? and why do they continuously mislead people into thinking it is the popular vote by telling everyone to get out and vote every vote counts? it's bullshit. and you call that democracy? that actually sounds closer to a closet dictatorship. let the people think they make a difference, while we stay in the back and call the real shots.

as for the topic, well i'm not gonna say i told you so... but i'm pretty sure i did

That's the more cynical view, like I said. This debate is too common to be debated - look up Wikipedia and look at FOR and AGAINST reasons for the electoral college.

 

[Devious]

while you might call my point of view cynical, i call it common sense. if you tell people that their votes count, then they should count. it's as simple as that. if i know that the person who gets the most votes isn't always the winner, that would make me seriously think about the point of even voting at all. hmmm, could this maybe be why voter turnout in America has been so low in the last few years? i think the people remember what happened last time the electoral college made this decision, and it's hard to forget the last 8 years of ridiculousness they gave the world in the form of the Bush administration. maybe people just figure, what's the point? maybe i'm not the only cynical one.

 

[S O F I]

while you might call my point of view cynical, i call it common sense. if you tell people that their votes count, then they should count. it's as simple as that. if i know that the person who gets the most votes isn't always the winner, that would make me seriously think about the point of even voting at all. hmmm, could this maybe be why voter turnout in America has been so low in the last few years? i think the people remember what happened last time the electoral college made this decision, and it's hard to forget the last 8 years of ridiculousness they gave the world in the form of the Bush administration. maybe people just figure, what's the point? maybe i'm not the only cynical one.

The votes count, but not directly. You vote for the President, and the electors usually vote for who you voted for. The American public generally is not very politically involved. There's a plethora of factors why voter turnout is low, and the electoral college is just one of them. Voter turnout is even lower in county-wide elections while it's a fact that you can affect your life more directly and for the better by voting in those elections than in the presidential one.

I mean, it's a no-brainer that the election system needs reform. I'm not disagreeing with you there. I'm just saying, things aren't as bad as you're making them look.

 

[ARon]

Umm Bush didn't win cus electors changed their votes in Florida. He won cus the popular vote was in his favor (just dont get into it about all that bullshit). So Florida's 27 elector votes went to Bush. And yes the popular vote does count. Whoever wins the popular vote in a state wins the Electoral votes for that state. It has happened before that the elector didn't vote at all or changed his vote but it is rarely the case. Then the only time I know of someone winning the popular vote and not winning the presidency is once, that was Al Gore. So it's a must people stop acting like our votes don't count or we don't decide and all that bullshit. I think we do not need the system but whatever, we have the technology to be able to count every single vote, the shit aint as hard as it may have once been. People like tradition I guess.

Puff, don't be dumb and act like if Obama wins legitimately that everyone in the Electoral College is gonna pledge the other way. Half the states have laws punishing electors that do that shit anyway. So the talk about the Electoral College being not in his favor (what the fuck?) is complete non sense, and pretty much empty like Obama's suit, right.

People act like the Electoral College is some secret society secretly chossing who we put in office. I know it is so hard to believe but most people involved in politics believe in our democracy.

Imagine if that happened anyway, people would be in the streets with arms.

 

[PuffnScruff]

Umm Bush didn't win cus electors changed their votes in Florida. He won cus the popular vote was in his favor (just dont get into it about all that bullshit). So Florida's 27 elector votes went to Bush. And yes the popular vote does count. Whoever wins the popular vote in a state wins the Electoral votes for that state. It has happened before that the elector didn't vote at all or changed his vote but it is rarely the case. Then the only time I know of someone winning the popular vote and not winning the presidency is once, that was Al Gore. So it's a must people stop acting like our votes don't count or we don't decide and all that bullshit. I think we do not need the system but whatever, we have the technology to be able to count every single vote, the shit aint as hard as it may have once been. People like tradition I guess.

Puff, don't be dumb and act like if Obama wins legitimately that everyone in the Electoral College is gonna pledge the other way. Half the states have laws punishing electors that do that shit anyway. So the talk about the Electoral College being not in his favor (what the fuck?) is complete non sense, and pretty much empty like Obama's suit, right.
.

i think in general we were actually saying that in the presidential election the person who receives the mosts votes is not awarded the presidency

as i also said, there have been 4 times in history were the person who won the popular lost the election. it will most likely continue to happen more often and could very well happen again this election.

and i don't know what the hell you are talking about but you took what i said completely out of left field. i never said anything of the sort that you said.

what i did say is that every political analyst that i have read says the electoral college favors mccain. and before you come in here and say i should stop reading fox news or some other ignorant comment i read many political related articles from a various sources and most of them are left leaning.

what i did say is that in this election it will come down to a couple of key battleground and swing states. ones that include states that went to bush in '04.

and what is this legitimately stuff? the only way to legitimately win is the electoral college.

this is the democrats election to lose. it will be a close election.

 

[Chronic]

McCain will win. Iran will be invaded after numerous speeches ("they will eat your children" "their strain of homosexuality is airborne"). People will still not know where the Middle East is.

EDIT: Forgot there is no homosexuality in Iran.

 

[AmerikazMost]

The votes only count because of the oligarchy that our two-party systems creates, effectively eliminating the chances of any third voice becoming a serious contender in any election in this country. If somehow a third party got enough support to rival the Democrats and Republicans, then you would see how much so many votes would not count.

The only way to defend the electoral system is if you're fine with different opinions and ideologies being pushed out of the fold. Granted, both parties need to come as close to the center as possible in the presidential election to win mass support, so the problem is not as telling for this particular election--where you vote for one person for one office--whereas it is for Congressional elections.

I say to hell with single-member districts. I'd prefer proportional voting with a high threshold.



As far the map favoring McCain, I disagree with what Puff's pundits are saying. I think it's way too early to look at the polling numbers of the swing states. Obama is already winning according the RCP's numbers, and his support is only going to go up with the full force of the party behind him. Then just wait until he starts debating McCain about the economy on national television.

 

[PuffnScruff]

As far the map favoring McCain, I disagree with what Puff's pundits are saying. I think it's way too early to look at the polling numbers of the swing states. Obama is already winning according the RCP's numbers, and his support is only going to go up with the full force of the party behind him. Then just wait until he starts debating McCain about the economy on national television.

i actually can't wait to see these two debate. i would really love it if obama would take up mccain on his offer to do the town halls with no moderators and take questions straight from the voters. personally i don't think obama could handle it all that well. we all saw how he acted when reporters actually started to ask him real questions and stopped throwing him softballs after snl was making fun of the press. obama got angry and ended the press confrence early after only taking a few questions. when the democrats were debating a few months back edwards owned his ass on more than a few times. edwards layed the smackdown on obama on his voting record in the illinois state senate.

mccains isn't exactly weak when it comes to debating. also, even though mccain admitted he is weak when it comes to economy issues (at least he can admit it), obama isn't much better. obama is a guy who was in debt only up to a few years ago, even when him and his wife were bringing in over two hundred grand a year. this doesn't say anything about him on the economy but it does say something about him on spending and how good he is with money.

i agree that it is still early when figuring out how the electoral college map is going to look. every pundit is going to have a different opinion based on where they get their information and how they vote.

 

[Jokerman]

Once America sees the two debating on national television on the economy, McCain may as well go home. And in the coming months things will just have gotten worse with oil prices and unemployment that McCain could be running with Jesus as his running mate and it won't make a difference. Obama is going to be the next President.

Not only does being a prisoner of war not qualify McCain to be President, I think it should disqualify him. Who wants someone who was psychologically scarred by such an experience running this country? Years of torture or solitary confinement? No wonder he's got anger issues. I bet he talks to himself too. Give this man 10,000 nuclear warheads. Yeah, right.

 

[Glockmatic]

He's also old as fuck.

 

[Duke]

Once America sees the two debating on national television on the economy, McCain may as well go home. And in the coming months things will just have gotten worse with oil prices and unemployment that McCain could be running with Jesus as his running mate and it won't make a difference. Obama is going to be the next President.

Not only does being a prisoner of war not qualify McCain to be President, I think it should disqualify him. Who wants someone who was psychologically scarred by such an experience running this country? Years of torture or solitary confinement? No wonder he's got anger issues. I bet he talks to himself too. Give this man 10,000 nuclear warheads. Yeah, right.

It is hard to gauge whether this is how you actually feel or if you're pulling the communal leg here.


Anyway, as a foreigner this has been a very....interesting election...hehe....

 

[PuffnScruff]

Once America sees the two debating on national television on the economy, McCain may as well go home. And in the coming months things will just have gotten worse with oil prices and unemployment that McCain could be running with Jesus as his running mate and it won't make a difference. Obama is going to be the next President.

Not only does being a prisoner of war not qualify McCain to be President, I think it should disqualify him. Who wants someone who was psychologically scarred by such an experience running this country? Years of torture or solitary confinement? No wonder he's got anger issues. I bet he talks to himself too. Give this man 10,000 nuclear warheads. Yeah, right.

lol i find it funny that you want to talk about qualifications to be president. members of obamas own party spent months pointing out he has no experience or any real qualifications to run the country. his own party!


you want to see for yourself? this is probably the best attack ad i have ever seen. the rnc using the democrats own words saying their presidential canidate is not experienced and has no business being president

HILLARY CLINTON: In this election, we need a nominee who can pass the Commander-In-Chief test. Someone ready on day one, to defend our country and keep our families safe. And we need a President who passes that test.

JOHN EDWARDS: Rhetoric is not enough. High falutin language is not enough.

HILLARY CLINTON: ...No time for speeches and on the job training. Senator McCain will bring a lifetime of experience to the campaign, I will bring a lifetime of experience, and Senator Obama will bring a speech that he gave in 2002.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: You were asked "Is he ready?" You said "I think he can be ready, but right now I don't believe he is. The Presidency is not something that lends itself to on the job training."

JOE BIDEN: I think that I stand by the statement.

BILL CLINTON: When's the last time we elected a President, based on one year of service in the Senate before he started running? He will have been a Senator longer by the time he is inaugurated, but essentially once you start running for President full time, you don't have time to do much else.

HILLARY CLINTON: I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the Commander-In-Chief threshold. And, I believe that I have done that, certainly Senator McCain has done that, and you will have to ask Senator Obama with respect to his candidacy.

 

[Duke]

Personally I feel the whole "Obama lacks experience" thing is actually a bit of a cheap shot. C'mon, it's not like a president has to make all the decisions by him (or her) self.

The real trick is to surround yourself with people that you know and trust who have specific expertises in different fields.

Being president is basically just a manager job. Know what you can not do yourself and have good people to cover that gap.

And on the other hand, the last thing you Yanks want is a president that feels he or she is so experienced that he or she will charge headlong in any situation taking no advice whatsoever.

 

[AmerikazMost]

lol i find it funny that you want to talk about qualifications to be president. members of obamas own party spent months pointing out he has no experience or any real qualifications to run the country. his own party!


you want to see for yourself? this is probably the best attack ad i have ever seen. the rnc using the democrats own words saying their presidential canidate is not experienced and has no business being president

HILLARY CLINTON: In this election, we need a nominee who can pass the Commander-In-Chief test. Someone ready on day one, to defend our country and keep our families safe. And we need a President who passes that test.

JOHN EDWARDS: Rhetoric is not enough. High falutin language is not enough.

HILLARY CLINTON: ...No time for speeches and on the job training. Senator McCain will bring a lifetime of experience to the campaign, I will bring a lifetime of experience, and Senator Obama will bring a speech that he gave in 2002.

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS: You were asked "Is he ready?" You said "I think he can be ready, but right now I don't believe he is. The Presidency is not something that lends itself to on the job training."

JOE BIDEN: I think that I stand by the statement.

BILL CLINTON: When's the last time we elected a President, based on one year of service in the Senate before he started running? He will have been a Senator longer by the time he is inaugurated, but essentially once you start running for President full time, you don't have time to do much else.

HILLARY CLINTON: I think it's imperative that each of us be able to demonstrate we can cross the Commander-In-Chief threshold. And, I believe that I have done that, certainly Senator McCain has done that, and you will have to ask Senator Obama with respect to his candidacy.

You, I, and anyone with any common sense knows that the only reason they have said those things because they were trying to capitalize off of a familiar idea that was floating around in order to advance their own interests.

Some of the best Presidents were the ones with what we would consider to have had "little" "experience."

 

[Chronic]

^^(To Puff)

If I followed politics I might agree/disagree with you but experience is slightly overrated. The way everything has been run has been a sickening mess (compared to some other countries it's heaven of course). Experience in protocol is great but it can actually be detrimental if you're too caught up in the whole "you need to be a part of the system to fight it" mentality. Because I know nothing of their actual politics my opinion is worth nothing but the reason why I'd like Obama to win is because I have more faith in him as a human being. Because politics is a dirty game (that pretty much everyone plays) you have to read between the lines. I care more about their policies on gay marriage than their plans for the economy. With an inexperienced president there's a bigger increase of them fucking up but at least there's a higher chance that they'll make the right moral decision and that's what it's about. The economy is obviously immensely important but the best thing for a country is a president that makes change and leads it into the right direction. Maybe I'm putting my importance in a different place but to me the economy will always just fluxiate and cause many different problems if low but the real problem is people. The money is within the country, it's just being divided in the wrong way. Regardless of whether he has to Bill Gates could provide just about the entire country with food, water and a roof above their heads.

There's a big difference between the ideal society in theory and in practise. Communism > Capitalism on paper but in real life it sure as hell isn't. You can try to implement the best economic devices and have it create a time of prosperity but it's only temporary, shit will go down the drain in the future and we'll try to recover again. To me that's working towards stuff on paper. Maybe it's my pessimism but I think the way we're going things will get terribly out of hand. Myspace to me is actually a sign of a very fucked up generation and although we all laugh at it it's actually not funny at all. And that's an example of some stupid internet site. If we go by presidents that keep the economy out of the drain it's just holding on until we self-destruct. Especially Americans stress the importance of the country above all.

What happened in the beginning of New Orleans was a sign of Bush's incompetence as a president on paper but what happened after the floods showed his flaws in real life. To me Bush just didn't fucking care to fix things afterwards and I have more faith in Obama than McCain that he'd at least try to do the right things. Ultimately money only goes so far, people actually getting off their ass is what matters. That's why I want Obama for president. I think he'll make the right decisions as a human being and even though he might not make much change (I ignore his slogan as political sleaze) while he's a president he might start a movement that changes things. It's not the state of the economy (although it did have huge effects that can't be written off) that took black people from slaves to citizens, it was a change in the way people behaved and acted. Depicting Bush as Hitler is laughable I found him very depressing as a human being and I feel in the end that's what made him such a terrible president, not his dyslexia.

 

[Jokerman]

McCain is not equipped to lead. He has already alienated so many of the foreign powers by his rigidity of thought, by his lack of scholarship, his lack of even knowing who runs countries. Tell us, John, the history of Kosovo, tell us of Albania, of Yugoslavia, and why did the countries want to secede, and why did we want them to secede? What was gained and what was lost? He couldn’t tell you. If you asked him to tell you who the head Sunni and head Shia in Iraq were, he’d be clueless. Explain the Arab League, how many members are there, and why would they be essential to solving the problems in Iraq and in Israel? He could not tell you. What he would say in each case is, “bomb ‘em.” Someone should do a cartoon caricature of him running naked into battle.

 

[Duke]

McCain is not equipped to lead. He has already alienated so many of the foreign powers by his rigidity of thought, by his lack of scholarship, his lack of even knowing who runs countries. Tell us, John, the history of Kosovo, tell us of Albania, of Yugoslavia, and why did the countries want to secede, and why did we want them to secede? What was gained and what was lost? He couldn’t tell you. If you asked him to tell you who the head Sunni and head Shia in Iraq were, he’d be clueless. Explain the Arab League, how many members are there, and why would they be essential to solving the problems in Iraq and in Israel? He could not tell you. What he would say in each case is, “bomb ‘em.” Someone should do a cartoon caricature of him running naked into battle.

Hahaha. Yeah, McCain came across as very one-dimensional.

 

[PuffnScruff]

The real trick is to surround yourself with people that you know and trust who have specific expertises in different fields.

.

that is also obama's other problem. look at the people he has surrounded himself with the past few decades. he has come out and said that these people getting all this attention in the media are not the same people he knew. rezko is the latest example.

You, I, and anyone with any common sense knows that the only reason they have said those things because they were trying to capitalize off of a familiar idea that was floating around in order to advance their own interests.

Some of the best Presidents were the ones with what we would consider to have had "little" "experience."

yes they were trying to capitalize off of it, but there is much truth in what they were saying. only an obamabot can deny it.

 

[Duke]

that is also obama's other problem. look at the people he has surrounded himself with the past few decades. he has come out and said that these people getting all this attention in the media are not the same people he knew. rezko is the latest example.

Oh I wouldn't know about that. I'm not that close on US politics.

I didn't mean specifically Obama either, but just the general principle of attracting people that know what they're talking about and aren't afraid to tell you off if you're about to make a huge fuck-up (mumbles something about a certain country around Tigris and Eufrates).

 

[S O F I]

McCain is not equipped to lead. He has already alienated so many of the foreign powers by his rigidity of thought, by his lack of scholarship, his lack of even knowing who runs countries. Tell us, John, the history of Kosovo, tell us of Albania, of Yugoslavia, and why did the countries want to secede, and why did we want them to secede? What was gained and what was lost? He couldn’t tell you. If you asked him to tell you who the head Sunni and head Shia in Iraq were, he’d be clueless. Explain the Arab League, how many members are there, and why would they be essential to solving the problems in Iraq and in Israel? He could not tell you. What he would say in each case is, “bomb ‘em.” Someone should do a cartoon caricature of him running naked into battle.

Finally an American acknowledging the fact that the US and the Western powers are responsible for our break-up.