Kobe's Numbers Still Don't Add Up To MJ

#1
heres a good article on why kobe still isnt fuckin wit jordan...

Kobe's numbing numbers still don't add up to MJ

January 24, 2006

BY JAY MARIOTTI SUN-TIMES COLUMNIST



The grand objective, as preached by a certain retiree immersed in motorcycles and cigars, is not to create a national lockjaw epidemic by jacking up 45 shots a night and trying to challenge Wilt Chamberlain. Rather, the idea is to score what is necessary in the context of winning championships, as in six of them. It took Michael Jordan many painful, maligned years to realize there was a W in we and an L in Michael.



But eventually, he figured out the meaning of synergy, cohesion, not letting his mates feel like cardboard cutouts and making them better players. I'm not so sure Kobe Bryant ever will reach that point, which defines the difference between being the greatest player of all time, as Jordan was, and the player who just authored the greatest regular-season solo performance of all time, as Bryant did Sunday night.

Placed in an individual cocoon, Kobe's 81-point earthquake reading was one of the dazzling sports achievements we'll see. Disgusted with the sluggish play of his Lakers teammates, he assaulted the Toronto Raptors and a double-digit deficit the way a mob boss devours rat finks. He scored 55 in the second half -- remember the fuss we made over Jordan's Double Nickels game? -- and was unstoppable even as the opponents knew he was coming and gunning every time. Unlike Chamberlain, a 7-1, 275-pound force who bullied stiffs and midgets for 100 points back in 1962, Bryant showcased a spectacular athletic arsenal that comes closest to Jordan's seminal moments as a one-man blur. He attacked the basket like a pit bull, reduced defenders to furniture pieces, dropped in finger-roll layups with chilling finesse and pumped in jump shots -- leaners, fallaways, turnarounds -- as if his arm was mechanical. Nor was the explosion an aberration. Since the splurge began in mid-December, he has produced masterpieces of 81 points, 62 points, two in the 50s and six in the 40s. His scoring average is 43.3 over the last 15 games, a rate he almost doubled on a phenomenal evening in Hoops Hollywood.


"I've seen some remarkable games, but never anything like that,'' said Phil Jackson, Bryant's coach and Jordan's ex-coach.

"You're sitting and watching, and it's like a miracle unfolding in front of your eyes and you can't accept it,'' said Bryant's boss, Lakers owner Jerry Buss. "Somehow, the brain won't work. The easiest way to look at it is that everybody remembers every 50-point game they ever saw. He had 55 in the second half.''

"To sit here and say that I grasped what happened, I'd be lying,'' said Bryant, who said he'll let his wife laminate and frame the stat sheet so he can "look at it one day when I have a potbelly.''

What's it all about, Kobe?


Yet, in the biggest scope, what does it really mean? Where is this incredible barrage taking Bryant and a merely decent Lakers club that doesn't ooze of talent but can't develop and survive a postseason round if it's The Kobe And Nobody Show? If Bryant is daring to become the Jordan of his day, doesn't he have to blend in better with Lamar Odom, whom Jackson loosely has compared to Scottie Pippen? Doesn't Kobe also need help from the front office? And if he gets it, how is, oh, the volatile Ron Artest going to react when he wants the ball and Bryant is hugging it? The sports-is-entertainment crowd loves the idea of Kobe pushing the envelope and approaching Chamberlain's 100-point barrier as an ongoing angle, but the purist in each of us is compelled to ask a broader question: Are so many shots and points from one player ultimately healthy for the sport, the team ideal? Dominant as Kobe is, can't you imagine a gifted 12-year-old somewhere hogging the ball and gunning away because he happens to be markedly better than his teammates? Jordan's career scoring night, a 69-point show against Cleveland in 1990, came on 37 shots from the field. If he'd attempted 46, as Bryant did against the lowly Raptors, he may have threatened 90. Thirty-eight times in his NBA days, Jordan cracked the 50-point plateau. In those games, know how many times he took as many shots at Bryant did Sunday?

Once, in an overtime game against Orlando when he scored 64.

When we ponder Jordan's signature moments, we think of the postseason -- The Last Shot and Wrist Flick in '98, The Sick Game, the barrage of three-pointers and shrug against Portland, The Craig Ehlo shot, the twisting, gravity-defying layup against the Lakers. With Shaquille O'Neal helping, Bryant had his defining moments as a three-time champion in L.A., but before anyone tries to place him in the same wing with Jordan in any pantheon, Kobe will have to prove he can win a championship or two without Shaq. Of course, the last thing he wanted to hear the other night was a Jordan reference.

"Throughout my career, I've been compared to him so many times. I wish they'd stop,'' Bryant told reporters. "He was Michael Jordan and I am Kobe Bryant. We were different players. I wish people would let it go. It annoys me. He's one of the greatest of all time if not the greatest and for us in the younger generation -- me and LeBron [James] -- to be compared to such greatness isn't fair. It's important for us to play the game we know how to play and let people sit back and enjoy what we do and not compare it to what they have done.''

Good. Because there's still no comparison, 81 points and all.

If his Jordan comments sound arrogant, that's Kobe for you. He may be taking over SportsCenter every night, but that doesn't mean he's becoming more likable. Do not make the mistake of forgiving a player for past sins based on amazing athletic feats. As I watch him swoop through another triple-team like a phantom, I can't help but flash back to his Colorado rape case and his free fall as a popular athlete, even after charges were dropped. It's hard for mainstream America to suddenly embrace Kobe because he scored 81. We can admire his skills, as we always have, but that doesn't mean I have to admire the man. His jersey is only the league's fifth-best-seller, which means respect for his performances, thankfully, hasn't yet let to renewed worship.

How soon Jackson forgets

I also wonder if Bryant's coach is the same Phil Jackson who torched Kobe in his book as a petulant, uncoachable brat with "narcissistic tendencies.'' True, that was when O'Neal and Bryant were feuding. But in less than two years, it's stunning to see Jackson let Bryant mangle what is left of a triangle offense and shoot at will, recalling this book passage: "It needs to be remembered that Kobe is still an employee, and that he needs direction and guidance in a way that helps him mature into the kind of adult we hope he can be. Kobe is missing out by not finding a way to become part of a system that involves giving to something larger than himself. He could have been the heir apparent to Michael Jordan and maybe won as many championships. He may still win a championship or two, but the boyish hero image has been replaced by that of a callous gun for hire.''
The callous gun just went for 81.

But until he wins in June again, it's a large number in a larger shadow.


Jay Mariotti is a regular on ''Around the Horn'' at 4 p.m. on ESPN. Send e-mail to inbox@suntimes.com with name, hometown and daytime phone number (letters run Sunday).


http://www.suntimes.com/output/mariotti/cst-spt-jay24.html
 
#3
well of course they dont add up yet, kobe's career isnt over yet

and kobe isnt going to have to blend with lamar, lamar is going to have to blend with kobe
 

Rukas

Capo Dei Capi
Staff member
#5
Kobe doesnt have the all around game that Jordan did. Jordan wasnt just a scorer, he was a great all around PLAYER, that in my opinion Kobe will never be.

Magic Johnson > Kobe
 

ARon

Well-Known Member
#7
Why, why compare. Why talk about team when there was a team on the floor. They shot 41 times and made only 14 shots. What do you expect someone down by 18 with his ability and mind set to do. Take the game over and win, period. It's near stupidity to look at what Kobe did and even consider anything negative about it.
 
#8
Nobody comes to Jordan, but it would appear that all the Kobe haters have it stuck in their mind that Kobe does infact believe he is better than MJ. I would like to see some clear cut evidence and audio proof that Kobe truly believes he is better than MJ. I know it's just an article, but people must stop hating on this guy and his ability as a basketball player.
 

Tito

New Member
#9
Jay Mariotti is such a Kobe hater. But thats how everyone in Chicago is. Remember its the Kobe haters and the media that keep bringing up the comparisons. Kobe just wants to be Kobe.
 
#10
Funny that a big Kobe hater like 2pacnbiggie quotes one of the biggest Kobe haters in television. Well at least we know your alive. I thought you might have killed yourself knowing that Kobe went for 81.
 

AmerikazMost

Well-Known Member
#11
AnarchistFunk said:
well of course they dont add up yet, kobe's career isnt over yet
lol at this

i did a stat comparison before the period in which everything was lost.

i noticed that everyone liked to compare jordan's and kobe's achievements at the same age. as in, on ehad this by the time he was 27, and the other had this by the time he was 27. considering that gave kobe an extra three seasons, it was completely biased. i thus compared them in both their first so many seasons. then the kobe fans complained that it wasn't fair because jordan had the three years of college experience, so i compared them again without kobe's first three seasons, thus balancing out all the factors (age, experience, years in the NBA). In every comparison, Jordan came out on top.

here's my take. jordan played in a more competitve NBA, a rougher NBA, and a more talented NBA. he had accomplished more than what kobe has to this point. he also won six championships without the significantly most dominant center in the league.

i don't care what stats kobe surpasses along the way. until he can prove that he is a winner and not a scorer, he will never compare to Michael.
 

yak pac fatal

Well-Known Member
#12
AmerikazMost said:
lol at this

i did a stat comparison before the period in which everything was lost.

i noticed that everyone liked to compare jordan's and kobe's achievements at the same age. as in, on ehad this by the time he was 27, and the other had this by the time he was 27. considering that gave kobe an extra three seasons, it was completely biased. i thus compared them in both their first so many seasons. then the kobe fans complained that it wasn't fair because jordan had the three years of college experience, so i compared them again without kobe's first three seasons, thus balancing out all the factors (age, experience, years in the NBA). In every comparison, Jordan came out on top.

here's my take. jordan played in a more competitve NBA, a rougher NBA, and a more talented NBA. he had accomplished more than what kobe has to this point. he also won six championships without the significantly most dominant center in the league.

i don't care what stats kobe surpasses along the way. until he can prove that he is a winner and not a scorer, he will never compare to Michael.
good post
 
#13
AmerikazMost said:
lol at this

i did a stat comparison before the period in which everything was lost.

i noticed that everyone liked to compare jordan's and kobe's achievements at the same age. as in, on ehad this by the time he was 27, and the other had this by the time he was 27. considering that gave kobe an extra three seasons, it was completely biased. i thus compared them in both their first so many seasons. then the kobe fans complained that it wasn't fair because jordan had the three years of college experience, so i compared them again without kobe's first three seasons, thus balancing out all the factors (age, experience, years in the NBA). In every comparison, Jordan came out on top..
and? you still cant compare a finished career to one which is FAR from complete thats great and im sure deadly accurate

AmerikazMost said:
here's my take. jordan played in a more competitve NBA, a rougher NBA, and a more talented NBA.
hmmmm, the western conference of the late 90's early 00's was some of the most competitive basketball, rough and talented ive seen in awhile, jordans era was great, but the western conference that kobe started in was incredible


AmerikazMost said:
he also won six championships without the significantly most dominant center in the league.
and? mj won championships with pippen one of the top 50 nba players of all time, arguably the greatest rebounder of all time in rodman for some years, paxson and kerr some of the most clutch shooters in history

thats what mj had, shaq is great but what mj had was better

AmerikazMost said:
i don't care what stats kobe surpasses along the way. until he can prove that he is a winner and not a scorer, he will never compare to Michael.
kobe has proven he's a winner, he doesn't have to prove hes mj, hes kobe and hes creating his own legend
 
#14
Kobe for the rest of his life will be hated by some if not most. The factors are many. A rapist, ballhog, does not care about his teammates, unaproachable. He aint winning no championships without a second player, a proven player.

As for the MJ and Kobe comparison there is none. Jordan has always been well liked, the greatest player ever in the NBA, sold out arenas everywhere just to see him (even the Clippers sold out their arena), & is the embassador of the game. Kobe he's a great player...
 

AmerikazMost

Well-Known Member
#15
AnarchistFunk said:
and? you still cant compare a finished career to one which is FAR from complete thats great and im sure deadly accurate
I compared Jordan's unfinished career to Kobe's unfinished career. Result: your argument = invalid
AnarchistFunk said:
hmmmm, the western conference of the late 90's early 00's was some of the most competitive basketball, rough and talented ive seen in awhile, jordans era was great, but the western conference that kobe started in was incredible
Bullshit. The only reason the West looked so good was because the East looked so bad. Jordan denied more of the 50 Greatest players (while in their primes) rings than anyone else.
AnarchistFunk said:
and? mj won championships with pippen one of the top 50 nba players of all time, arguably the greatest rebounder of all time in rodman for some years, paxson and kerr some of the most clutch shooters in history
Shaq's physical presence alone makes him more of a force than Pippen could have ever been. Consider that with the fact that there weren't any other dominant centers during the years the Lakers won, it made Shaq unstoppable. Just look at Shaq's early years. While Ewing, Olajuwon, and Robinson were still at the top of their games, Shaq didn't win, even with Penny when he was amazing.

Rodman, though he rcorded amazing rebounding numbers, never contributed with the scoring. His high average for a season with the Bulls was 5.7. not exactly a threat that would open up lanes for Jordan like Shaq was for Kobe.

lol @ Paxson and Kerr meaning anything in the argument. The Lakers had their share of contributing role players as well. In 1999-2000, Glen Rice averaged 15.9 points per game, which is better than any of the complimentary players of Jordan and Pippen did. And you want to talk about clutch shooters? How bout Robert Horry on LA? What else was he good for other than hitting game winning shots?
AnarchistFunk said:
kobe has proven he's a winner, he doesn't have to prove hes mj, hes kobe and hes creating his own legend
Correct, he doesn't have to prove he is MJ. The discussion here is if he's better than MJ, and he's not.
 
#16
1. Kobe isn't better than M.J. M.J. is arguably the best player of all-time.

2. There is no need to compare Jordan to Kobe or to see who is better. No one compares Jerome Bettis to Barry Sanders or O.J., do they? What's so different in this situation? More than anybody, it's the haters who leep bringin' this argument up. I have never heard a Kobe fan argue how much he is like Mike.

3. I would take Jordan's supporting cast over Kobe's winning cast anyday. To say Dennis Rodman was not a factor just because he didn't score is bannanas. Ben Wallace scores very low, if any some games, yet he is the heart of the Pistons.

4. Take out the Lakers and Portland during the late 80s/very early 90s, and the West was not a factor. During the Lakers 3 championships, there was much more competition. San Antonio, Kings, Mavericks, Utah, Lakers, Houston, etc.

5. Iverson jacks up 30 shots and he's carrying his team. Kobe does it and he's a hog. Go figure.....

6. No one ever replies to the statement that his team was losing by damn near 20 and they were 14 and 41. Why is that?
 

AmerikazMost

Well-Known Member
#17
Confucius87 said:
1. Kobe isn't better than M.J. M.J. is arguably the best player of all-time.
Agreed.
Confucius87 said:
2. There is no need to compare Jordan to Kobe or to see who is better. No one compares Jerome Bettis to Barry Sanders or O.J., do they? What's so different in this situation? More than anybody, it's the haters who leep bringin' this argument up. I have never heard a Kobe fan argue how much he is like Mike.
Michael Jordan is the bar. People argue who is better, Montana or Elway. Payton or Sanders. Pedro or Clemens. As long as people keep calling Kobe amazing, he'll be compared to the best player that played his position to see just how amazing he really is.
Confucius87 said:
3. I would take Jordan's supporting cast over Kobe's winning cast anyday. To say Dennis Rodman was not a factor just because he didn't score is bannanas. Ben Wallace scores very low, if any some games, yet he is the heart of the Pistons.
I didn't say he didn't contribute. I said he didn't contribute with the scoring. Don't misquote me for your own argument.
Confucius87 said:
4. Take out the Lakers and Portland during the late 80s/very early 90s, and the West was not a factor. During the Lakers 3 championships, there was much more competition. San Antonio, Kings, Mavericks, Utah, Lakers, Houston, etc.
Portland, Los Angeles, Phoenix, San Antonio, Utah, Houston, Golden State, and Seattle all won at least 50 games once in the three seasons of Jordan's first three championships. Though I don't understand exactly how this applies, because Jordan played in the East during an era when the NBA's talented teams were spread evenly across all of the divisions.
Confucius87 said:
5. Iverson jacks up 30 shots and he's carrying his team. Kobe does it and he's a hog. Go figure.....
Iverson is a hog also, but his status is outside the scope of this debate.
Confucius87 said:
6. No one ever replies to the statement that his team was losing by damn near 20 and they were 14 and 41. Why is that?
I don't know what or who you're referring to.
 
#18
AmerikazMost said:
I compared Jordan's unfinished career to Kobe's unfinished career. Result: your argument = invalid.
you still cant predict on that type of shit, 3 years of unc does not equal to taking off kobes first 3 years, you cant compare jordans learning experiance at unc to kobe's in his first three years

AmerikazMost said:
Bullshit. The only reason the West looked so good was because the East looked so bad. Jordan denied more of the 50 Greatest players (while in their primes) rings than anyone else.
bullshit rather on your side, the west was so dominant that the east could not win games against them so their records looked like shit, the east wasnt so bad its the west was so good

AmerikazMost said:
Just look at Shaq's early years. While Ewing, Olajuwon, and Robinson were still at the top of their games, Shaq didn't win, even with Penny when he was amazing..
its not that the centers got worse, yes there hasnt been a dominant center, but also when shaq joined the lakers he changed his game up and brought to another level

kobe > penny

AmerikazMost said:
Rodman, though he rcorded amazing rebounding numbers, never contributed with the scoring. His high average for a season with the Bulls was 5.7. not exactly a threat that would open up lanes for Jordan like Shaq was for Kobe.
i never said rodman was a scorer, he is arguably the greatest rebounder and hustler of all time, to say that rodman wasn't exactly a threat is ridiculous, rodman brings more then just rebounds, he brings, hustle, fire and rawness to the floor to deny rodman of his importance is injustice


AmerikazMost said:
lol @ Paxson and Kerr meaning anything in the argument. .
with your rodman statement and this i have to ask myself did you actually watch any of the bulls playoff runs or are you just reading stat sheets....

yes the lakers first 2 championships had great supporting cast, maybe even arguably the third cuz of horry, however youre talkin like if kobe was on his own he wouldnt of won them, agreed, however youre also talkin like as if jordan was on his own he woulda still won those 6 championships, bullshit

because of todays salary cap and cba's the lakers wont be allowed to surround kobe with the same cast jordan has had with salaries constantly on a constant rise, however even with that kobe will still win more championships and at the end of his career he will of surpassed jordan
 
#19
He may have surpassed Jordan in stats by the time he is done his career, but he will never be considered on the same level or equal to Jordan, nevermind surpassing him. It's like hockey in a way. People will break his records eventually, but Wayne Gretzky will always be remembered as the best that ever played. Same with Jordan. It will only be the hardcore Kobe fans that will think of him on that level, no one else will.
 

AmerikazMost

Well-Known Member
#20
AnarchistFunk said:
you still cant predict on that type of shit, 3 years of unc does not equal to taking off kobes first 3 years, you cant compare jordans learning experiance at unc to kobe's in his first three years
Three years of NBA experience means nothing? lmao. Kobe was able to learn from the likes of Shaq and Eddie Jones in each of those three years, and averaged just under 20 ppg by his third season. He was an all-star in his second season.
AnarchistFunk said:
bullshit rather on your side, the west was so dominant that the east could not win games against them so their records looked like shit, the east wasnt so bad its the west was so good
Are you trying to tell me that the players are more skilled in Kobe's time than in Jordan's?
AnarchistFunk said:
its not that the centers got worse, yes there hasnt been a dominant center, but also when shaq joined the lakers he changed his game up and brought to another level
Shaq's production is consistenet throughout his career. The only significant increase in any aspect of his game from one year to the next was his scoring from his rookie season to his sophomore season, both with the Magic.
AnarchistFunk said:
kobe > penny
Though I agree, Penny was absolutely amazing for those few seasons in Orlando. Definitely a better offensive player in those couple of years than Kobe. He just wasn't as good of a scorer or defender.
AnarchistFunk said:
i never said rodman was a scorer, he is arguably the greatest rebounder and hustler of all time, to say that rodman wasn't exactly a threat is ridiculous, rodman brings more then just rebounds, he brings, hustle, fire and rawness to the floor to deny rodman of his importance is injustice
Again, I said he isn't a scoring threat. If I have to highlight that again, I might have an anurism. I never denied Rodamn's rebounding and defensive abilities.
AnarchistFunk said:
with your rodman statement and this i have to ask myself did you actually watch any of the bulls playoff runs or are you just reading stat sheets....
with your rodman statement and this i have to ask myself did you actually read what i said or just accept a false interpretation that would best fit the argument you were trying to make...
AnarchistFunk said:
yes the lakers first 2 championships had great supporting cast, maybe even arguably the third cuz of horry, however youre talkin like if kobe was on his own he wouldnt of won them, agreed, however youre also talkin like as if jordan was on his own he woulda still won those 6 championships, bullshit
No, I'm not. The only player whoever won a championship by himself was Hakeem Olajuwon during the first year of Jordan's first retirement.

This is a team sport in which Jordan was a team player. Do I think Jordan could have won championships without Pippen? Yes. Do I think he could win them without a competent surrounding cast in which he incorporated into each game and maximized each of his teammates potential? No.

Could Jordan win a championship with the cast the Kobe has now? Yes. Can Kobe? Not with the way he is playing, no.
AnarchistFunk said:
because of todays salary cap and cba's the lakers wont be allowed to surround kobe with the same cast jordan has had with salaries constantly on a constant rise, however even with that kobe will still win more championships and at the end of his career he will of surpassed jordan
Though it will never happen, see quote below.
Devious187 said:
He may have surpassed Jordan in stats by the time he is done his career, but he will never be considered on the same level or equal to Jordan, nevermind surpassing him. It's like hockey in a way. People will break his records eventually, but Wayne Gretzky will always be remembered as the best that ever played. Same with Jordan. It will only be the hardcore Kobe fans that will think of him on that level, no one else will.
:thumb:
 

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