January 27th, The bloodiest day for US forces in Iraq

[devils_advok8]

no i dont see your point because you are just avoiding what I said and in turn you brought my nationality into this to some how piss me off or whatever you're doing.

you put a smile next to that statement like you enjoy the killings... where does that put you?

oh dear..
listen up.remember about a year ago when 3 Jordanian (I'm Palestinian but Jordan is where I live) hostages where kidnapped, two of them were originally Palestinians?One of them was the second cousin of a good friend of mine's dad.I was all up for his beheading, same thing with his second cousin's son.He worked with the occupation, thus he was a traitor.It aint about being Japanese, Jordanian, Palestinian, Iraqi or whatever.To sum it all up, all traitors, occupiers, and those working along with them should either get the fuck out or killed.It could be my dad, my uncle, hell even my grandfather, if they were in Iraq and worked with the occupation, got killed and had their bodies sent here in body bags, there'd be no funeral, I would just dig a hole and bury them all there.
My land has been occupied for 56 years man, you don't know what it's like, having the land of your ancestors raped.I know exactly how the Iraqi insurgents are feeling and I'm 100% behind them.It's not about who the person was, wether Japanese, Arab or a family member.There are things that are more important to me, like the future of another Arab sister country.
I apologize if you were offended in any way, I assure you that it wasnt what I was trying to get across.

 

[TruthSayer]

Wow I'm suprised to hear that from you but I strongly agree......what about no longer make such shitty statements like "Should the Army and Navy gaze on Heaven's scenes they will find the streets gaurded by United States Marines."

cause If I go to heaven boy, I don't want to see no marine, no terrorist, no weapons, no hate. I want to see naked women and Lessi.

I think that these Soldiers have a job to do. I can't fault them for doing their job to survive. I don't believe in disrespecting the dead of any race, religion or creed. Everyone has a family someone that loved them, it's wrong for anyone to run around when they did not know them disrespecting them. End of story.

 

[S. Fourteen]

I respect your opinion and where you are coming from, I just hope you do the same with me. I dont smile for every dead insurgent, why should it be any different for you? Both sides are doing it for something whether its their beliefs or for the love of something.

 

[devils_advok8]

Since you have iraqi friends you might be able to tell me...... they want the US to leave, ok, I can understand that. But doesn't they fear what could happen when the US would leave Since you have iraqi friends you might be able to tell me...... they want the US to leave, ok, I can understand that. But doesn't they fear what could happen when the US would leave now? We all know there'd be a big danger that warlords would take over the power and with the different religions there we could easly have a civil war...for those reasons, even if I ever was against this war, I have to say the US can't leave now. Don't they see it this way too? Or are they just kinda blind in their hate and don't think about what could happen after the US occupation?

so if the US stayed for a 100 more years, there'd still be no difference in religions and no civil war would spark?Who said that they could'nt live in peace next to each other, and reach an agreement, where lets say, the president is Shiite (as they make the majority), PM is Sunni, etc.Just like Lebanon.A civil war went on for years, next thing you know they all live in peace now and they're all playing a major role in rebuilding their country.The Iraqis got oil, they could rebuild their country in no time.Elections have been held for the first time in half a century, and the voters turnout turned out to be much more than expected, even though there country is a mess at the moment; which means that the Iraqi citizens do want a greater Iraq and will vote in the coming years.

 

[devils_advok8]

I respect your opinion and where you are coming from, I just hope you do the same with me. I dont smile for every dead insurgent, why should it be any different for you? Both sides are doing it for something whether its their beliefs or for the love of something.

course I respect your opinion, my fellow street soldier.I love you .It's just that I couldnt help but support anyone fighting for a cause.

 

[The.Menace]

so if the US stayed for a 100 more years, there'd still be no difference in religions and no civil war would spark?Who said that they could'nt live in peace next to each other, and reach an agreement, where lets say, the president is Shiite (as they make the majority), PM is Sunni, etc.Just like Lebanon.A civil war went on for years, next thing you know they all live in peace now and they're all playing a major role in rebuilding their country.The Iraqis got oil, they could rebuild their country in no time.Elections have been held for the first time in half a century, and the voters turnout turned out to be much more than expected, even though there country is a mess at the moment; which means that the Iraqi citizens do want a greater Iraq and will vote in the coming years.

If the US leave now there is no army no police no structure in this country. you gotta agree that the chances of a civil war is way higher then if there'd be a government etc..... and that is what the US try to do now (they have to, what else could u do)..... give this country a structure, orgganzie it so u can leave. It's not about stayin there for 100 more years or something, if that country can handle itself, then it's time to leave, weather it's in 5 years or in 10 years...... but I don't think it's the case right now.

Above you say:
"Elections have been held for the first time in half a century, and the voters turnout turned out to be much more than expected, even though there country is a mess at the moment; which means that the Iraqi citizens do want a greater Iraq and will vote in the coming years."
At the same time you say "death to every traitor" and praise the bloody attacks. So are the Iraqis that vote now traitors and deserve to die?

Cause like I said above. whoever attacks the US military, I can live with that. The US see it as war, so you have the right to attack your enemie in a war. But whoever attacks the people you know is a traitor in my view, and in fact more attacks happen right now against Iraqi police, Iraqi people then against the military. And where is the point in that? Is a Iraqi that wants to work for the police so the security is restored a traitor? Hell no, this man is like "I don't want the US to do that, I want to be responsible for my country" ..... so this man is no traitor and gets attacked, killed by terrorists..... those are the real traitors because they stop the progression, at least try to, and without that progression (that the Iraqi can take care of themself) there is no way that there'll be peace when the US leaves - and they US only will leave if they have a good feelin about doin so....because if not, the whole war had no point at all (It didn't had a point at all when they started but now u gotta at least make the best out of it and I guess that would be to leave a non radical government)

Why do they attack voters? police man? Their own people? To create hate. Cause if there is hate, it helps their cause. Hate creates more extrem muslim terrorists then you can make the fight and the enemie you want to (US). Besides that it's about power. As long as there is no government you can do you own thing, right now it's like every leader of a small group tries to get his influence, tryin to become a warlord....so he has his power and power means money of course. That is the reason why they don't want a governent. And they don't care if it's an US governemnt or an Iraqi, they just want nothing you know. No rules, so they can make their own.

This is the only reason that makes sense in my view, that's why they attack their own people. If so, there is nothing herotic about it, whatsoever. These attack are no fights for freedom. It's to scare their own people an to slow down progression. And again, I don't see the heroic part in that, those are the traitors, those are the guys you should fight against in first place.


An other question @devil, cause u have the conenctions. Do the people really feel like it was better under Saddam? Was it better then it is now or are they in a way happy that he's gone?

 

[devils_advok8]

If the US leave now there is no army no police no structure in this country. you gotta agree that the chances of a civil war is way higher then if there'd be a government etc..... and that is what the US try to do now (they have to, what else could u do)..... give this country a structure, orgganzie it so u can leave. It's not about stayin there for 100 more years or something, if that country can handle itself, then it's time to leave, weather it's in 5 years or in 10 years...... but I don't think it's the case right now.

Above you say:
"Elections have been held for the first time in half a century, and the voters turnout turned out to be much more than expected, even though there country is a mess at the moment; which means that the Iraqi citizens do want a greater Iraq and will vote in the coming years."
At the same time you say "death to every traitor" and praise the bloody attacks. So are the Iraqis that vote now traitors and deserve to die?

Cause like I said above. whoever attacks the US military, I can live with that. The US see it as war, so you have the right to attack your enemie in a war. But whoever attacks the people you know is a traitor in my view, and in fact more attacks happen right now against Iraqi police, Iraqi people then against the military. And where is the point in that? Is a Iraqi that wants to work for the police so the security is restored a traitor? Hell no, this man is like "I don't want the US to do that, I want to be responsible for my country" ..... so this man is no traitor and gets attacked, killed by terrorists..... those are the real traitors because they stop the progression, at least try to, and without that progression (that the Iraqi can take care of themself) there is no way that there'll be peace when the US leaves - and they US only will leave if they have a good feelin about doin so....because if not, the whole war had no point at all (It didn't had a point at all when they started but now u gotta at least make the best out of it and I guess that would be to leave a non radical government)

Why do they attack voters? police man? Their own people? To create hate. Cause if there is hate, it helps their cause. Hate creates more extrem muslim terrorists then you can make the fight and the enemie you want to (US).

This is the only reason that makes sense in my view, that's why they attack their own people. If so, there is nothing herotic about it, whatsoever. These attack are no fights for freedom. It's to scare their own people an to slow down progression. And again, I don't see the heroic part in that, those are the traitors, those are the guys you should fight against in first place.


An other question @devil, cause u have the conenctions. Do the people really feel like it was better under Saddam? Was it better then it is now or are they in a way happy that he's gone?

When I speak of traitors, the Iraqi national guard are the first thing that come to my mind, cause they basically want to sto stop the militant attacks.My point was (about how long the US stayed there) was that as long as the coalition forces were there, there'd never be peace, and if they appointed those who they saw were fit, there'd never be peace also.And when it comes to voters, they are traitors cause they're basically enforcing the US policy and following it when others are fighting against and are giving everything up for their country.When I said that "the voter turnout turned out to be much more than expected", I meant that the Iraqis'd be more than willing to vote in the coming years, cause they are voting already and their country is a battle ground and there was a great chance they'd be attacked by militants.At the same time I dont blame them (the voters), but I dont think that they should give their votes to US puppets, they should be all against it.The elections should be led through the UN rather than the US, where anyone has got a right to nominate himself, after feeling secure that is, and no natural resources are being grabbed by force anymore, no other Iraqi humilated, etc.

Besides that it's about power. As long as there is no government you can do you own thing, right now it's like every leader of a small group tries to get his influence, tryin to become a warlord....so he has his power and power means money of course. That is the reason why they don't want a governent. And they don't care if it's the US governemnt or an Iraqi, they just want nothing you know. No rules, so they can make their own.

I dont think so.When the US first entered Iraq, no attacks were carried, but when things got out of hand, the Sunnis started their attacks, Muqtada al Sadr started attacks for a while, then Muqtada Al Sadr stopped.Most, if not all attacks, are being carried by Sunnis at the moment.point is, the Iraqis started their heavy attacks only after the US went too far, and it's only the Sunnis that are doing the attacks.Believe it or not, most of them were followers of Saddam, some were in the Republican guard.Did you expect members of the ex-regime's army to watch their country getting fucked and carry attacks just for power and their names to be heard?When you hear about an attack, only the group's name is mentioned, not every militant's name.and no, "power and power means" money doesnt apply to Iraq just right now, you know?
In general, no, most of the Iraqis hate Saddam.The ex Baathists, his army and anyone who worked with him/under him were prolly the only people who liked him.All the Shiites in general hate him, same thing with the Kurds.if you were to ever hear about a follower of Saddam, then he's prolly Sunni.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

http://206.152.229.13/bobbywarns/Bobby.wmv

Just watched this.

What can I say? If the dude really believed that he was in Iraq for Iraqi's freedom then I feel sorry for him - he was duped.

Otherwise, regardless of the dramatic music & flashes of 'patriotism', I have no sympathy whatsoever.

 

[Zero Cool]

expect more of those attacks to come, people

Indeed but Democracy will win through in the end.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

Indeed but Democracy will win through in the end.

You're absolutely right!

The people want American blood, & they shall have it!

 

[Zero Cool]

You're absolutely right!

The people want American blood, & they shall have it!

Correction, a minority of terrorists want American blood and personally I hope that they don't get it. Since 1958 the Iraqi people have been under the rule of gangsters and thugs, compared to that the U.S.-led system is a godsend.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

Correction, a minority of terrorists want American blood and personally I hope that they don't get it. Since 1958 the Iraqi people have been under the rule of gangsters and thugs, compared to that the U.S.-led system is a godsend.

To be robbed & pillaged is a God-send? Then these 'gangsters & thugs' must have been the Devil in disguise.

The 'US-led system' you speak of, is one of hypocrisy & one fuelled by greed. I hope the Iraqis win their freedom from this new tyrant, even if their soil must be soaked for years to come....

 

[Zero Cool]

To be robbed & pillaged is a God-send? Then these 'gangsters & thugs' must have been the Devil in disguise.

The 'US-led system' you speak of, is one of hypocrisy & one fuelled by greed. I hope the Iraqis win their freedom from this new tyrant, even if their soil must be soaked for years to come....

Well Calcuo I understand your viewpoint but I respectfully disagree. The Baathists versus democratically elected leaders? No contest for me. If US is "thrown-out" as you wish, then the Iraqi's will not live under the basque of freedom rather they will once again be subject to the rule of corrupt terrorists.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

I also understand your viewpoint Zero but respectfully disagree.

Corrupt Iraqis or corrupt Americans?

I think history has shown that if people are going to be oppressed, they usually would rather be oppressed by their own rather than foreigners.

Freedom is the target & one which the Iraqi people probably won't achieve for a long time even if America leave but if America stays (in influence if not physically) then the Iraqis will have an even longer road to freedom.

 

[Zero Cool]

I also understand your viewpoint Zero but respectfully disagree.

Corrupt Iraqis or corrupt Americans?

I think history has shown that if people are going to be oppressed, they usually would rather be oppressed by their own rather than foreigners.

Freedom is the target & one which the Iraqi people probably won't achieve for a long time even if America leave but if America stays (in influence if not physically) then the Iraqis will have an even longer road to freedom.

That's where our opinions diverge. I believe that the U.S. are not corrupt but are actually there to achieve a mission, a mission to give Iraqi's democracy. Oppression is a terrible thing be it by your own or anyone else. What proof do you have that the US are "oppressing people" are they denying them basic freedoms or massacring them by the thousands? I think not. Remember Iraq is still a warzone. Take the case of Northern Ireland. Would you rather the British get out now and leave the province to it's own devices? Anarchy would soon prevail much like Iraq. The US is there to foster Democracy once that is accomplished then it's time to pull rank and leave but until that point the US prescence in Iraq is serving its purpose.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

That's where our opinions diverge. I believe that the U.S. are not corrupt but are actually there to achieve a mission, a mission to give Iraqi's democracy. Oppression is a terrible thing be it by your own or anyone else. What proof do you have that the US are "oppressing people" are they denying them basic freedoms or massacring them by the thousands? I think not. Remember Iraq is still a warzone. Take the case of Northern Ireland. Would you rather the British get out now and leave the province to it's own devices? Anarchy would soon prevail much like Iraq. The US is there to foster Democracy once that is accomplished then it's time to pull rank and leave but until that point the US prescence in Iraq is serving its purpose.

There's video evidence of Americans mistreating Iraqis - that is oppression. Brutality & cruelty is oppression. Persecution (ie. those who have done nothing being thrown in jail for being suspected of doing something) is oppression.

What basic freedoms would you be talking about? You'll have to be more specific as we are not talking about a Western country like France.

And yeah, they are massacring Iraqis. Ain't you seen the news?

Northern Ireland is a completely different issue with a very unique history (as you well know) & so I will not be drawn into making comparisons which are not feesable.

I must ask you, if America is there for the prosperity of Iraq then how much wealth will be generated by the rebuilding of Iraq & how much of that will reach the Iraq people? Also, how much is America paying for the oil they're taking (stealing)?

I still want your answers to these questions but I will say that the truth is, if America was in Iraq for democracy they would've left a long time ago because only greed & religion can lead to a foreigner occupying a country while it's death toll continues to rise & it is financially damaging to it's own people.

 

[devils_advok8]

fresh like uhh

 

[Zero Cool]

There's video evidence of Americans mistreating Iraqis - that is oppression. Brutality & cruelty is oppression. Persecution (ie. those who have done nothing being thrown in jail for being suspected of doing something) is oppression.

What basic freedoms would you be talking about? You'll have to be more specific as we are not talking about a Western country like France.

And yeah, they are massacring Iraqis. Ain't you seen the news?

Northern Ireland is a completely different issue with a very unique history (as you well know) & so I will not be drawn into making comparisons which are not feesable.

I must ask you, if America is there for the prosperity of Iraq then how much wealth will be generated by the rebuilding of Iraq & how much of that will reach the Iraq people? Also, how much is America paying for the oil they're taking (stealing)?

I still want your answers to these questions but I will say that the truth is, if America was in Iraq for democracy they would've left a long time ago because only greed & religion can lead to a foreigner occupying a country while it's death toll continues to rise & it is financially damaging to it's own people.

There is video evidence of American's mistreating Iraqi's that much is true. However it's a minute figure and done under conditions of war. I see no evidence of a widespread conspiracy by US forces to deny the Iraqi's basic civil rights, if you can prove otherwise please do. Your rhetoric is outweighing the fesability of your argument. You say "if America was in Iraq for democracy they would've left a long time ago because only greed & religion can lead to a foreigner occupying a country while it's death toll continues to rise " but don't you realise if America is in Iraq for Democracy then that inevitably means they would stay longer. You can't just waltz into a country set up a few elections and hope everything will be alright. It's a long and steady process which may take years to complete, however it will be completed one way or another.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

Some of those who were in the videos have stated that they were told by their superiors to do what they did. I would say their superiors have superiors themselves that they take orders from. This goes way up the chain of command.

You seem to be in favour of the 'anything goes in war' attitude. Well isn't it hypocritical to say America's there for democracy yet they have an air of dictatorship about them.

You didn't answer my questions about Iraqi's basic rights so I can't answer your comment on that.

American has claimed to be fighting for democracy in the past - look at Vietnam. They stayed in Vietnam for a long time then realized that it was not worth it, & not right, & left. If they were in Iraq for democracy they would see the parallels & leave - but they're not.

You haven't answered my questions on oil & wealth, why not? If you just overlooked them please look back & answer them.

 

[Zero Cool]

Some of those who were in the videos have stated that they were told by their superiors to do what they did. I would say their superiors have superiors themselves that they take orders from. This goes way up the chain of command.

You seem to be in favour of the 'anything goes in war' attitude. Well isn't it hypocritical to say America's there for democracy yet they have an air of dictatorship about them.

You didn't answer my questions about Iraqi's basic rights so I can't answer your comment on that.

American has claimed to be fighting for democracy in the past - look at Vietnam. They stayed in Vietnam for a long time then realized that it was not worth it, & not right, & left. If they were in Iraq for democracy they would see the parallels & leave - but they're not.

You haven't answered my questions on oil & wealth, why not? If you just overlooked them please look back & answer them.

Vietnam was the right war conducted in the wrong manner. If America had to of succeeded do you think Vietnam would be in a better or worse position at the moment? The current conditions in Vietnam while not widely reported are really atrocious, poverty and desperation abounds. To answer your question;

Like West Germany after the Second World War, I believe the reconstruction of Iraq will substantially boost the economy and hopefully usher in a new period of prosperity. The US have nothing to gain in the long term by exploiting Iraq then leaving it. If they do it negates their whole mission, to kill the conditions for the growth of terrorism. As to how much America is paying for the oil they're ostensibly stealing, that is an economist question of which I cannot honestly claim I know. Do you? Again if they were to just steal Iraqi oil for their own ends it would obviously help to negate their whole reason for toppling Saddam.