Gun Control

#1
Those who favor greater restrictions on firearms ownership and availability tend to believe some subset of:
  • There is no fundamental right to own firearms.
  • Guns represent a more effective method of killing than other varieties of weapons, and their elimination would lower rates of death and injury.
  • The great majority of people in the USA do not own guns.
  • Gun control legislation reduces violent crime.
  • Guns are more dangerous to the owners than to intended targets because most gun related deaths are a result of domestic violence, accidents, and suicides.
  • Guns are of little use as self defense for the typical owner because in incidents where a hostile encounter with an armed criminal occurs, the criminal is often more experienced and skilled with his/her weapon; also, criminals may act in groups.
  • Even against armed criminals, the presence of a gun serves more often to escalate the likelihood and/or severity of violence.
  • Citizens have no need to own guns to protect themselves against crime because government is tasked with that obligation.
  • Citizens need to protect themselves against crime, but owning firearms is not a good way to accomplish this.
  • Citizens of First World countries today have no need to protect themselves against their governments if they vigilantly confront malfeasance before violence is necessary, or that even if such a need should arise, it would be hopeless to take up individual small arms against the modern military that a government would bring to bear.
  • Guns, being devices designed to kill, raise the level of violence in any disagreement between people.
  • Gun control, properly and judiciously applied, lessens (though cannot eradicate) the possibility that criminals will obtain firearms.
  • Fewer guns means fewer deaths relative to homicide, suicide, and unintentional deaths [1].
Those who favor maintaining or extending the private ownership of firearms tend to believe some subset of:
  • Owning firearms is a right (In the United States, the Second Amendment is usually given as a means of debate).
  • Equipping in defense from predators, criminal, animal, or otherwise is a right.
  • Equipping for subsistence and survival is a right, and firearms represent a legitimate means of hunting or harvesting animals for food.
  • Government should not be empowered to interfere with an individual's right to own firearms as long as the individual is not harming or intimidating fellow citizens.
  • Guns in the homes of the law-abiding populace reduce the occurrence of burglary and home invasion crimes.
  • Family, public health and insurance actuarial death statistics demonstrate that the risk of responsibly owning a gun is negligible compared to other typical hazards, e.g., bathtubs and swimming pools, automobiles, bicycles, suffocation hazards, and ingestable poisons.
  • Although government is tasked with an obligation to protect citizens collectively, government is not obligated to protect any given individual citizen without a special relationship established with that citizen prior to victimization, and thus citizens have a demonstrable need for personal protection. (In U.S. case law, courts have held that the police cannot be held civily or criminally liable for failing to provide individual protection (Warren vs. D.C)) [2]
  • The concept of government and police having absolute and total responsibility to protect citizens leads to government and police bureaucracies that are fortresses of undemocratic political power. In addition, this responsibility, were it to exist, would divert legislative oversight and attention and strain public expenditures which might otherwise be invested in schools, parks, libraries, social programs, transportation, and other public infastructure.
  • An armed populace decreases the overall occurrence of violent crime; widespread ownership and discreet carry of handguns by the law-abiding advances civilization by deterring assault, bullying, mayhem, robbery, rape, and murder.
  • Gun control laws have a disproportionate effect on the freedoms of the law-abiding as criminals are willing to break the law to acquire, possess, and use guns.
  • Carrying a firearm provides the means to make oneself safer.
  • An armed populace is a deterrent to the excesses of government; the threat of violent revolution by the people is a check and balance against an abusive totalitarian government or "coup d'état".
  • In the U.S., existing gun laws would be sufficient if the government were able and willing to enforce them.
  • Increasing movement to blame violence in Mexico and Canada on American gun owners represents a political attack on the United States rather than a position with an empirical basis.
  • That over 50% of American households own guns, despite government statistics showing the number is approximately 35%, because guns not listed on any government roll were not counted during the gathering of data. [3]
  • Women are particularly at risk from violence and require access to guns as a means of self defense from stronger men, guns are an equalizing force. Gun control leads to higher rates of rape and sexual assault.
These lists should not be construed as exhaustive; there may exist other positions not represented here.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_control



I think in some respects it does undermine the executive branches of government and their ability to carry out their duty to protect. But is it more that the inadequacy of such branches in achieving their duty partly responsible for the need for private arms?

I'm plagued by the old argument that less guns means less risks. If no-one is able to keep them, then no-one may be put at risk of misuse. But perhaps I'm fortune to live in a relatively safe country, I dont have to lock my door at night, so what can I understand of the risks and needs of protection.

Still, what if rather than thinking in terms of one persons right to maintain arms, thinking about the majority of people's right to be free from the threat of their use?

I wonder if everyone had to own a gun, what would happen.
 
#3
there's at least two murders everyday on the news. hell, five folks just got shot in church last week. got 15 and 30 year old muthafuckas havin gun fights in the parkin lots. rapist going after whoever is vulnerable. pedophiles, arsonist, robbers, murders, police, the klan, and then the son bitches that are just plain fucked in the head. and this ain't even a place like New York, Cali, and Chi. we's a country ass city area and have these problems. so it's got to be even worst in those parts.

another thing is that if you don't own a gun, your fucked. hell, if you do own a gun, you're still fucked cause then you'll serve time for SELF DEFENSE. Personally, guns i wish they ain't even existed. but to me its right too have guns when all the wrong people have guns already.

"People call the police because they have guns. we're just cutting out the middle man."
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
#4
Amara said:
I wonder if everyone had to own a gun, what would happen.
There's a town in the US where everyone who's able is requred to own a gun. What happened? Very little crime. An armed society is a polite society.

By the way, I wrote some of that Wikepedia entry.
 

S O F I

Administrator
Staff member
#5
KAMIKAZI said:
They better have gun control cuz I'd kill anyone to get with you. :horny:
You forgot the "[/ghettostar]" at the end. :p


I believe that if guns were outlawed, the crime rate wouldn't go down.
 
#6
Jokerman said:
There's a town in the US where everyone who's able is requred to own a gun. What happened? Very little crime. An armed society is a polite society.
But is it the gun itself or the feeling that everyone was on an equal playing field? Was it that people respected others coz they felt safe themself or that because they knew everyone had capabilities they feared everyone so that they wouldnt step out of line? What if one person had a bigger gun, more guns... wouldnt you cycle into the same kind of problems with comparative advantage? Would you better achieve the same sense of equality and safety and lack of desire to step out of line if there were absolutely no guns, a policy rigorously enforced?
 

PuffnScruff

Well-Known Member
#7
i think people seem to forget the times when everyone had a sword on their side. guess what? people died all the time then due to fights and disagreements.

a gun is not going to stop a person from killing another person. if there is a will there is a way.

i have been around guns my whole life, and i shot my first gun when i was about 5 or 6. i learned at an early age how to use a gun in a proper way. with owning a gun there comes responsibility. you cant just act tuff because you see the gangsters on the movies do it and think your cool and if you do well then you had bigger problems to begin with before you had the gun.

one of the things that most people dont mention about why gun control laws dont work, at least in the u.s., is that the crime rate actually goes up. states in my country that have gun control laws have higher crime rates than states with out. the person with the gun has an advantage over the person with out a gun, and they know that the person most likely isnt going to have a gun when they go to rob them, so they can put that fear into the person they are going to rob.

another thing about the Second Amendment is that, if citizen own guns, and the majority of our military is off fighting a war, and we get invaded, for example by china invades our country, then we as citizen have a duty to defend our homes and our country.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#8
PuffnScruff said:
another thing about the Second Amendment is that, if citizen own guns, and the majority of our military is off fighting a war, and we get invaded, for example by china invades our country, then we as citizen have a duty to defend our homes and our country.

lol....i don't think you stand much of a chance with your Deagle against a T72 tank.

Legal gun ownership causes more problems than it solves imo. That said, US' gun control laws aren't that much more soft than any European country (hell, 300000 Swiss have an automatic rifle under their beds), but there's something in American society that makes them want and use guns all the damn time.
 

Kareem

Active Member
#9
gun control isnt going to stop people from killing each other, we've been killing each other for thousands of years, the firearm just made it quicker. Heres the problem ban firearms then the blackmarket on guns will only get larger. Reguardless guns or no guns homicide, rape, robbery ect will continue, the banishment of guns will not effect crime to such an extreme degree.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#10
Kareem said:
gun control isnt going to stop people from killing each other, we've been killing each other for thousands of years, the firearm just made it quicker. Heres the problem ban firearms then the blackmarket on guns will only get larger. Reguardless guns or no guns homicide, rape, robbery ect will continue, the banishment of guns will not effect crime to such an extreme degree.
Of course it's not going to stop "normal" crime. No one said so. The risk of having guns in the house comes with domestic violence. Kids shooting their mothers. Fathers mistaking their wife for a burglar and blowing her brains out.

Kids taking uncle's guns to school and murdering their class. That's the danger. When you give people easy acces to guns, it's inevitable shit like that is going to happen.
 

PuffnScruff

Well-Known Member
#12
Duke said:
Of course it's not going to stop "normal" crime. No one said so. The risk of having guns in the house comes with domestic violence. Kids shooting their mothers. Fathers mistaking their wife for a burglar and blowing her brains out.

Kids taking uncle's guns to school and murdering their class. That's the danger. When you give people easy acces to guns, it's inevitable shit like that is going to happen.
like i said i have been around guns my whole life, i never killed my parents or took a gun to school to get back at a bully.

the real danger is the parents not locking the guns up away from the kids or not teaching the kids the rights and wrongs.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#13
PuffnScruff said:
like i said i have been around guns my whole life, i never killed my parents or took a gun to school to get back at a bully.

the real danger is the parents not locking the guns up away from the kids or not teaching the kids the rights and wrongs.
Aye. Most people that own guns are responsible with them. But even if 90% is, 10% isn't.

I'd just rather not take the risk, y'know.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#15
There's a distinct difference imo. Cars were made for transportation. Yes, they are also dangerous and need to be handled responsibly. Knives as well.

But whichever way you look at it, a gun has one use and one use only. To kill. And it's dirt easy too. Pulling a trigger is a lot easier than actually getting in your car and running someone over or stab someone to bits. This is a very grey area I'm treading now and I know that. But somewhere there is a line where an object becomes somehow "too dangerous". And guns are on the bad side of that line.

Let me put it like this: In a fight, be it with your spouse, a mugger, your best friend or Santa, it's just too easy to grab that 9 from upstairs and shoot someone in a fit of rage.

Guns are just too dangerous imo. I know you don't see it that way and we'll probably never agree.

Lastly, firearms are just more integrated in American society. Americans have something with guns. Something that you don't see in Europe or Australia or anywhere else in the Western world. While every place has their gun enthusiasts, you won't see businesswomen going to the firing range here. There, they do.
 

PuffnScruff

Well-Known Member
#16
Duke said:
There's a distinct difference imo. Cars were made for transportation. Yes, they are also dangerous and need to be handled responsibly. Knives as well.

But whichever way you look at it, a gun has one use and one use only. To kill. And it's dirt easy too. Pulling a trigger is a lot easier than actually getting in your car and running someone over or stab someone to bits. This is a very grey area I'm treading now and I know that. But somewhere there is a line where an object becomes somehow "too dangerous". And guns are on the bad side of that line.

Let me put it like this: In a fight, be it with your spouse, a mugger, your best friend or Santa, it's just too easy to grab that 9 from upstairs and shoot someone in a fit of rage.

Guns are just too dangerous imo. I know you don't see it that way and we'll probably never agree.

Lastly, firearms are just more integrated in American society. Americans have something with guns. Something that you don't see in Europe or Australia or anywhere else in the Western world. While every place has their gun enthusiasts, you won't see businesswomen going to the firing range here. There, they do.
in a fit of rage it is just as easy to hit the person too.

im not trying to change your mind or anything here, but i mean come on, what will ever end violence? nothing, except maybe education. you can date wars back for 8000 years maybe ever more than that.

if guns were banned in this country tomorrow i would strap a katana on my back, call me the highlander:p
 

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