Christian question

Rukas

Capo Dei Capi
Staff member
#21
Jocka said:
^thank you.

Rukas, feel better knowing it was actually in the bible? I wasn't being "blasphemous" towards christianity, I just wanted to know the entire story and where to find it myself.
I dont feel better or worse for seeing that it is in the bible, I feel interested at best because I have not read it before. I never said you were being blasphemous, all I said was that to my knowledge I didn’t know the story existed and thus it is on you to prove that it does, which Tech did for you.

In the future, please don't delete posts because you believe they may have been "bad" towards a religion.. it's not "bad", it's simple questions. We all have them.
Excuse me? Fuck you. Trying to make it seem like I deleted posts I didn’t agree with? LOL You asshole. How are the posts I deleted bad to a religion? I deleted off topic posts that were going to ruin the thread like I do in every thread. The three posts I deleted were:

Originally Posted by FlipMo
Silence with you blasphemous ranting before I curse you to the pits!
Originally Posted by BankRobber
you meant silence you with, right?
Originally Posted by Jocka
^ lol
How were they “bad towards a Religion”? They were bad towards the discussion because they were off topic.

I will say it again and believe I am a 100% serious when I say this, fuck you. If you ever again try to play me off as corrupt and deleting posts just because I didn’t agree with them, instead of the truth that they were just bullshit, I will not hesitate to permanently ban your IP you shit spreader. I hate people that lie and try to twist the truth like you just did.

And dont you even dare try to say I am being unfair, because what you just tried to pull, accusing me of something you thought other people couldnt check is the most unfair thing you could do.

Try to twist this or the truth again and you're gone. That goes for anybody who has similar ideas in mind too.
 

Rukas

Capo Dei Capi
Staff member
#22
Bible Question: "In Mark 11:13-14, Jesus cursed a fig tree which had leaves but no figs, and verse 13 says 'for it was not the season for figs.' If that was the case, why did Jesus get so angry at the tree?"

Bible Answer: This is one of the clear cases where we can understand Jesus' anger when we realize He is speaking figuratively as well as literally. His anger was directed not only toward the fig tree, but also toward the nation of Israel that the fig tree represents.

When the nation of Israel was reformed in 1948 and recognized by the United Nations, they chose a fig tree for their national flag.

And to understand Jesus' anger, we have to know a bit of horticulture. When a fig tree bears fruit, the figs are first buds, and as the figs mature, leaves grow to protect the tender young fruit.

So when Jesus saw a fig tree with leaves, He could rightly expect to find fruit, perhaps immature fruit as the season for ripe figs had not yet arrived, as Mark 11:13 says, but some type of fruit. And when he found the tree had the appearance of bearing fruit, but no actual fruit hidden under the leaves, He cursed it as a hypocrite.

And that's a perfect symbol of the nation of Israel at the time Jesus was born into the world. They had a form of godliness, with the religion of the Pharisees, Sadducees and scribes being openly practiced in the temple at Jerusalem. But where was the reality, the fruit of godliness? Their religion allowed rejection of their Messiah.

In the very next verses after cursing the fig tree, Jesus cleanses the temple of the ungodly practices of these religious leaders.

"So they came to Jerusalem. And Jesus went into the temple and began to drive out those who bought and sold in the temple, and overturned the tables of the moneychangers and the seats of those who sold doves.

"And He would not allow anyone to carry wares through the temple.

"Then He taught, saying to them, 'Is is not written, My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations?' But you have made it a den of thieves," Mark 11:15-17 says.

When the worshippers came to the temple bringing their sacrifices, the religious leaders had a practice in Jesus' time of inspecting the animals for suitability before they could be used.

And if the animals or birds were not purchased at the temple from the merchants who were associated with the religious leaders, they were rejected. So then the people had to buy approved sacrifices from the merchants who were paying the leaders to be allowed to sell sacrifices in the courtyard surrounding the temple.

Plus, if you didn't have the approved currency, you had to change your money at the temple before you could buy a sacrifice, again with the religious leaders getting a cut from the moneychangers, who they allowed to use the temple courtyard for their business.

There is also mention of carrying "wares" through the temple, which could have been any items bought and sold in the temple. And guess who had to approve the sale of any wares in the temple also?

Can you see why Jesus got so angry at the "den of thieves" which the religious leaders were running in the very place that God had ordained to worship Him and was supposed to be a house of prayer?

The fig tree showed promise of fruit with leaves, yet had only the outward show with no fruit beneath. But the Pharisees were even worse. They had the outward show of religion, but they were really thieves, profiting from their positions of authority in the temple.

In Matthew 24:27, Jesus said, "Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you are like whitewashed tombs which indeed appear beautiful outwardly, but inside are full of dead men's bones and all uncleanness."

One thing you have to admit about Jesus. He didn't beat around the bush. He came right out and said what He knew to be the truth.

Or in the case of the fig tree, He cursed it and caused it to wither away. Which is exactly what happened to the nation of Israel, which ceased to exist from A.D. 70, when the Romans destroyed it, until this very generation today, which has seen the nation reborn.
http://johnmyers.com/bible14.html
 
#23
Rukas said:
I dont feel better or worse for seeing that it is in the bible, I feel interested at best because I have not read it before. I never said you were being blasphemous, all I said was that to my knowledge I didn’t know the story existed and thus it is on you to prove that it does, which Tech did for you.



Excuse me? Fuck you. Trying to make it seem like I deleted posts I didn’t agree with? LOL You asshole. How are the posts I deleted bad to a religion? I deleted off topic posts that were going to ruin the thread like I do in every thread. The three posts I deleted were:







How were they “bad towards a Religion”? They were bad towards the discussion because they were off topic.

I will say it again and believe I am a 100% serious when I say this, fuck you. If you ever again try to play me off as corrupt and deleting posts just because I didn’t agree with them, instead of the truth that they were just bullshit, I will not hesitate to permanently ban your IP you shit spreader. I hate people that lie and try to twist the truth like you just did.

And dont you even dare try to say I am being unfair, because what you just tried to pull, accusing me of something you thought other people couldnt check is the most unfair thing you could do.

Try to twist this or the truth again and you're gone. That goes for anybody who has similar ideas in mind too.
ban me?! I don't remember the posts.. I don't live in the bored and stare at posts daily. I had no memory of what those posts were but I assumed they were posts answering the question. I appologize for assuming once again, which appearantly pissed you off. Again, appologize though.. you know I have never disrespected any admin or mod or 2pacboard in my entire time being on here. I have only kiddingly played and this time I ASSUMED you didn't want to see blasphemous posts. I wasn't angry about it. I said please (showing that i actually thought the posts were different).

I also assume if I have an opinion about the banning, I'll get banned.. so I'll end our small 'fued' here and continue with the thread.


NOW

If Jesus was sent here to shed his blood so we could be forgiven for our sins, is the bible basically stating that the christian God is a non-forgiving God that banishes the "unperfect" to hell?
 
#24
Jokerman said:
Well, the sense of the word perfect being used by the King James translators is not the same sense of meaning as the word perfect as applied to Jesus. Remember, english meanings in King James's time is not always the same as used today. The word they were translating actually means blameless, and later translations show this correction. But in those days one sense of the meaning of perfect was blameless. And that was referring to Job's character, not his being born sinless like Jesus.
The Hebrew phrase is 'tam v'yoshor'.

Tam means simple/basic, can be 'perfect'.

Yoshor is upright/just.

So the full thing really means perfectly upright.

But in any case, very foolish to question an entire faith on the basis of one translation from one language into a completely different type of language.

Even so, the different covenants applied to Job and Jesus mean that 'sinlessness' mean two very different things... In Job's day (so I am led to believe) you could atone for any unrighteousness through sacrifice of livestock etc. and still be considered pure... Also, by merely obeying the Law of Moses Job would be considered to be righteous and flawless... Jesus, however, emphasized that it is what is contained within a man that makes him unclean, and that although this will be evident in his actions his heart is what will be judged... Therefore Jesus was supposedly perfect in the sense that he had never entertained indecent thoughts and had focused entirely upon God throughout his life... Quite a radical claim when you think about it...

One must also remember that Job is a book of Wisdom... It is written in verse and it is quite likely that Job never existed (if he really did he would ahve to be one pretty unlucky guy... can you imagine somebody being pariahed like that by God? realistically? The ending is quite convenient too in which Job gets 100 times more than he had before, or some such nonsense!) and was merely used to personify the struggle that mankind has always had with the question, 'Why do bad things happen to good people?' In order to establish that there was no way Job could be blamed for the 'tests' that fall upon him it would be understandable for the writer to portray him as blameless and unsullied at the beginning.

If you were wanting to be more controversial you might ask why Paul claims that Jesus was the first physically resurrected being. Clearly many people are familiar with the story of the raising of Lazarus in John, and a couple of other incidents with the widow's son and centurian's daughter, I might have slightly misremembered the second one! The question is then raised as to whether Paul had access to any of the Gospels in the first place and how much he knew of Jesus' life... Does it not seem odd that he refers so attentively to the Old Testament and yet mentions next to nothing of Jesus' life story in his letters, despite evangelising in the Lords' name? Ahhhh, Theology is a fascinating subject!

edit was talking to a priest in training today and he told me "Yes, Jesus did bring back to life Lazarus, the widow's son & Jairus' daughter (Jesus healed the centurion's servant- did not raise him from dead). These individuals probably spent the rest of their lives on earth and died eventually. However Jesus resurrected from the dead into a totally new being- He became one with God once again and ascended to heaven- in other words, He did not die after his resurrection. The time when humans would have resurrection would be before the Last Judgement".

which to me is fair enough... Afterall, when Jesus is discussing resurrection with Lazarus' nearest, when asked if she believes in the resurrection she interprets it in the spiritual sense! Let us not forget that even in this case though Jesus would not be the first human according to the bible... What about Enoch, Elijah and, according to Roman Catholic tradition, Mary? If when Paul was talking about this he only meant those who had not died but been raised already these people qualify as well... Also, why does Jesus apparently say to the thief on the right, 'today you shall eat with me in paradise', or words to that effect? Does that not indicate that the dead are instantly resurrected despite what Paul says about it being 'in the twinkling of an eye.' I suppose I could be over-simplifying as 'today' can be interpreted in so many different ways in the context of heaven and time is such a weird concept when applied to eternity!

Even so, disagree with me if you wish, but I believe there are some stark differences between the Theologies expressed by the Jesus presented in the Gospels (of course you could argue that different Gospels give a drastically different picture of the Lamb of God) and those later expounded by Paul.
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
#25
LL COOL PAC said:
why Paul claims that Jesus was the first physically resurrected being. Clearly many people are familiar with the story of the raising of Lazarus in John, and a couple of other incidents with the widow's son and centurian's daughter...The question is then raised as to whether Paul had access to any of the Gospels in the first place and how much he knew of Jesus' life... Does it not seem odd that he refers so attentively to the Old Testament and yet mentions next to nothing of Jesus' life story in his letters, despite evangelising in the Lords' name?
Paul died in 64 C.E. The first Gospel, Mark's, was written no earlier than 70 C.E. Then Matthew's in 80 C.E. So, no, Paul hadn't read them.

In fact, until the Gospels were produced and circulated, Paul's letters were the only written sources distinctive to Christianity. That's why they rose to prominence in Christian usage despite the controversy surrounding Paul, and formed the nucleus of what the second-century Church called the New Testament. What we read about Jesus today in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was circulating only in oral form during the 60s C.E.

So the question then becomes, didn't Paul hear these oral stories? For sure, and from some eyewitnesses, no doubt. So does that mean the raising of Lazurus was a later made-up story by one of the Gospel writers? Perhaps. Or does it just mean that Paul is thinking of resurrection as applied to Jesus in a totally different way?

You also have to understand that Paul's letters were just that, letters. Not essays about Jesus or Christianity. They were written to various churches for specific purposes. Written to people who had already heard the oral stories about Jesus, so he didn't have much need to talk about Jesus' life. Also, for Paul, the most important thing was Jesus' death, not his life.

In I Corinthians 15:35-44, we see that Paul clearly thinks of resurrection as being something that happens to the soul. In part: "Sown in decay it is raised in incorruption; sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; sown in weakness, it is raised in power; sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."

What he says in this letter to Corinth sets out the most exact explanation he ever gave of what he saw on his way to Damascus in 32 C.E. It's also the only firsthand written account in the New Testament of what the risen Jesus looked liked.

When he posed the question of the kind of body the risen Jesus has, Paul was contemptuous of materialist claims. There have always been ppl who think that for Resurrection to have any meaning, it must involve resuscitating the physical body that died. That assumption lies at the root of a great deal of literalist thought. Paul flatly contradicts any suggestion that the dead are resuscitated when God raises them and impugns the intelligence of anyone who would accept that idea in I Corinthians 15:36-38.

He never compromised with the literalists of his time over the basic principle that being raised from the dead is about a transformation of this world, including our bodies. His attitude produced controversy, contention, hurt feelings, and perplexity. So you're right when you say there are some stark differences between the Theologies expressed by the Jesus presented in the Gospels and those later expounded by Paul. He never showed concern to soften the blow of contempt when he felt like challenging a received opinion. His apocalypse burned away any sense of diplomacy he might have once had.

God did not reanimate a corpse when he raised Jesus from the dead, but gave his Son a glorious body "exactly as he wants." Paul nowhere refers to Jesus' tomb being empty, because he thought only a "fool" would say the body that was raised was equivalent to the body that was buried. Paul's companions on the road to Damascus did not see Jesus when Paul experienced his vision. They only saw Paul react to it. Paul says with unmistakable emphasis that God chose "to uncover his Son in me so that I should announce him triumphant among the Gentiles." His visionary realization of the Son within implied that they could be delivered the same way.

To Paul's mind, as shaped by his experience on the road to Damascus, God had made a new Adam in the case of Jesus. "Adam" in Hebrew means "human being," and Paul saw the risen Jesus as a model for a new humanity. Jesus' flesh had passed away like a seed in the ground, transformed into a "spiritual body" (I Corinthians 15:42-45). The first Adam had been a living "soul," breathing in response to the animating breath of God. This last Adam, however, of a completely different substance from the first human being, had become "life-giving Spirit"--the dynamic, metaphysial wind that had moved over the face of the waters at the moment of creation.

He is a new template for humanity. People can pass beyond being material and beyond their awareness of their own limited lives. They can become spitirual bodies: infused with Spirit, God-conscious, framed in Christ's image instead of Adam's (I Corinthians 15:47-49): "The first person was from earth, dust; the second person from heaven. Such as the dust person is, so are those of dust; such as the heavenly person is, such are those of heaven. And just as we have born the image of the dust person, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly person."

That was why "We shall all be changed" (I Corinthians 15:51): everyone, everywhere, without exception.

That was Paul's message. The literalist Church turned Jesus' and our resurrections into physical events, thus taking all the subletly and profoundness away form it.
 

Pittsey

Knock, Knock...
Staff member
#26
The bible was written by man. Christianity is taught by man. There are bound to be false parts, parts are exagerated, and bits are changed. That is mans nature.

Also the bible is at least 1500 years old, I'm not sure when the first copy was written, but it wasn't at the time of Jesus. So it's bound to have been badly translated and understood at times. The point of it is for you to take from it what you need to be a better person and to help you handle life.

I however am not religious.
 

Swollen_Member

On Probation: Please report any break in the guide
#27
Jocka said:
NOW

If Jesus was sent here to shed his blood so we could be forgiven for our sins, is the bible basically stating that the christian God is a non-forgiving God that banishes the "unperfect" to hell?
The bible is stating that God wants to forgive us, and Jesus is the messenger.
 
#28
Jokerman said:
Paul died in 64 C.E. The first Gospel, Mark's, was written no earlier than 70 C.E. Then Matthew's in 80 C.E. So, no, Paul hadn't read them.

In fact, until the Gospels were produced and circulated, Paul's letters were the only written sources distinctive to Christianity. That's why they rose to prominence in Christian usage despite the controversy surrounding Paul, and formed the nucleus of what the second-century Church called the New Testament. What we read about Jesus today in Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John was circulating only in oral form during the 60s C.E.

So the question then becomes, didn't Paul hear these oral stories? For sure, and from some eyewitnesses, no doubt. So does that mean the raising of Lazurus was a later made-up story by one of the Gospel writers? Perhaps. Or does it just mean that Paul is thinking of resurrection as applied to Jesus in a totally different way?

You also have to understand that Paul's letters were just that, letters. Not essays about Jesus or Christianity. They were written to various churches for specific purposes. Written to people who had already heard the oral stories about Jesus, so he didn't have much need to talk about Jesus' life. Also, for Paul, the most important thing was Jesus' death, not his life.

In I Corinthians 15:35-44, we see that Paul clearly thinks of resurrection as being something that happens to the soul. In part: "Sown in decay it is raised in incorruption; sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; sown in weakness, it is raised in power; sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body."

What he says in this letter to Corinth sets out the most exact explanation he ever gave of what he saw on his way to Damascus in 32 C.E. It's also the only firsthand written account in the New Testament of what the risen Jesus looked liked.

When he posed the question of the kind of body the risen Jesus has, Paul was contemptuous of materialist claims. There have always been ppl who think that for Resurrection to have any meaning, it must involve resuscitating the physical body that died. That assumption lies at the root of a great deal of literalist thought. Paul flatly contradicts any suggestion that the dead are resuscitated when God raises them and impugns the intelligence of anyone who would accept that idea in I Corinthians 15:36-38.

He never compromised with the literalists of his time over the basic principle that being raised from the dead is about a transformation of this world, including our bodies. His attitude produced controversy, contention, hurt feelings, and perplexity. So you're right when you say there are some stark differences between the Theologies expressed by the Jesus presented in the Gospels and those later expounded by Paul. He never showed concern to soften the blow of contempt when he felt like challenging a received opinion. His apocalypse burned away any sense of diplomacy he might have once had.

God did not reanimate a corpse when he raised Jesus from the dead, but gave his Son a glorious body "exactly as he wants." Paul nowhere refers to Jesus' tomb being empty, because he thought only a "fool" would say the body that was raised was equivalent to the body that was buried. Paul's companions on the road to Damascus did not see Jesus when Paul experienced his vision. They only saw Paul react to it. Paul says with unmistakable emphasis that God chose "to uncover his Son in me so that I should announce him triumphant among the Gentiles." His visionary realization of the Son within implied that they could be delivered the same way.

To Paul's mind, as shaped by his experience on the road to Damascus, God had made a new Adam in the case of Jesus. "Adam" in Hebrew means "human being," and Paul saw the risen Jesus as a model for a new humanity. Jesus' flesh had passed away like a seed in the ground, transformed into a "spiritual body" (I Corinthians 15:42-45). The first Adam had been a living "soul," breathing in response to the animating breath of God. This last Adam, however, of a completely different substance from the first human being, had become "life-giving Spirit"--the dynamic, metaphysial wind that had moved over the face of the waters at the moment of creation.

He is a new template for humanity. People can pass beyond being material and beyond their awareness of their own limited lives. They can become spitirual bodies: infused with Spirit, God-conscious, framed in Christ's image instead of Adam's (I Corinthians 15:47-49): "The first person was from earth, dust; the second person from heaven. Such as the dust person is, so are those of dust; such as the heavenly person is, such are those of heaven. And just as we have born the image of the dust person, we shall bear also the image of the heavenly person."

That was why "We shall all be changed" (I Corinthians 15:51): everyone, everywhere, without exception.

That was Paul's message. The literalist Church turned Jesus' and our resurrections into physical events, thus taking all the subletly and profoundness away form it.

I'm sorry... How do you know when Mark's Gospel was written? I tihnk you are making pre-suppositions there possibly about certain predictions Jesus is supposed to have made... You could say, 'It is generally reckoned that Mark's Gospel was written at no point before AD 70', I tihnk that would be more apt!

How do you explain that the eminent Dr John Robinson placed all of the Canonical Gospels as being written between 40 and 65 AD? And anyway... Only an idiot or a complete novice of a Historian or Theologian would fail to appreciate that the Gospels as we have them are derivatives of earlier texts (such as Quelle and Proto-Luke) that were circulating far earlier!

No, Paul's letters weren't just letters as we might think of them today. They were his very instruction regarding how to live a perfect Christian life to the men and women of the churches he was pastoring. If they were merely for specific purposes for specific churches then why do many letters have great similarities between them and why have many Theologians reached the conclusion that Paul's letters were circulated from church to church? Agreed, Paul talks about Jesus' death and the power of his resurrection in great depth but in the entire canon of his work does it not seem fantastical that there are not at least some references to Biblical stories and some fairly startling discrepancies between his Theology and that of his Lord, presented in NT scripture? Also, I have scripture and the stories in my possession now, but it does not mean that I still like to hear about them from somebody who proclaims to come in the name of Jesus!

By the risen Jesus I assume you mean the ascended Jesus (may seem like pedantry but the personality of the John Gospel is still under debate as I am led to believe despite the prevalent view that it is a later Hellenized gospel!)? And I would suggest it may not be first hand as such as Paul had his work scribed!

If God 'gave his Son a glorious body "exactly as he wants."' then why were the Disciples such as Thomas allowed to see and touch Him? Does Paul not say that we ourselves will have spiritual bodies because the celestial and the corporeal are not compatible together (I think in Corinthians)? Are you falling into the trap of Docetism? I think so! Christ was not an ethereal spirit upon resurrection but flesh and blood (the disciples are said to have made him eat fish!), you cannot suggest that we will all be raised physically in the same way with any scars we received in life? Only if this were so would Jesus already possess the 'Glorious' body intended for Him in heaven! You may say Paul ridiculed such people in Corinthians 15 (just scrolled down to see that you have cited the same passage in your post!) but this is a refutation of the Jewish belief that all bodies are physically resurrected and not of Jesus' being raised physically before his ascension. Clearly, being so dogmatic and belligerent, why would he accept Luke to travel with him when Luke portrayed Jesus as rising physically? Also, if Jesus was already clothed gloriously upon resurrection then how could the disciples look at Him? Do you not realise that in the bible to look upon God has a changing effect upon all and often causes men to avert their gaze (think of the cloud of God, Moses' face becoming radiant etc. etc.) and that the descriptions of the resurrected Jesus are very different from the ascended Jesus (Once ascended He is portrayed as mighty and emanating light, as in Paul's vision on the road to Damascus and in John's vision in Revelation)! It seems quite patent to me from the rest of Paul's literature that he believed Jesus to have been raised physically and then to take on another heavenly body upon entry into heaven... For afterall, do you not think there was some from of transformation involved on the outbound journey, unless you are suggesting He began His reign at the right hand of the Father as an infant? At the very least you are taking two and two and making five insofar as there is no real nuance that Christ's transformation to the meta-physical took place directly after His crucifixion! I mean, for Pete's sake... You might go as far as a Docetist fully baptized in heresy and state that the transformation into a spirit-like presence took place at his baptism... Whatever view you take along this line it is still ludicrous in my book!

I could go on but I won't.

Profoundness? Profundity... I think you will find! Oh, and we have borne the image of dust... We have not born it... Oh, and what you believe to be St Paul's message is in fact merely your interpretation of Paul's message... I know you were writing a polemic but even the absolute statement at the end seems wildly presumptuous without that qualification considering that people far more intelligent than you have reached some very different conclusions! In words ascribed to Jesus, 'You worship what you do not understand.'
 
#29
LL COOL PAC said:
Profoundness? Profundity... I think you will find!
profound

• adjective (profounder, profoundest) 1 very great or intense. 2 showing great knowledge or insight. 3 demanding deep study or thought. 4 archaic very deep.

— DERIVATIVES profoundly adverb profoundness noun profundity noun.

— ORIGIN Latin profundus ‘deep’.

If you're going to take the pedantic route you should probably make sure you're actually in the right.
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
#30
^Thanks, Illuminattile. I usually don't like using nouns with the -ness form, which is a Latinism, because they don't usually flow well, but I left that in because the subtle difference between it and "profundity" said what I wanted better.

LL COOL PAC, I wasn't writing a scholarly paper in a historical journal. I was writing a post on Tupacboard. I'm not going to take the time to qualify every statement I make with a footnote to the relevant literature. The reader of my post should assume that what I say is my opinionated conclusions on what I read in the Bible and on the opinionated conclusions of scholars who know more than I, since this is not my main interest, and I haven't been studying it for 50 years like them. But a lot of them disagree on many points, so I've had to pick the expert opinions that made sense to me. Just as they did themselves.

"How do you explain that the eminent Dr John Robinson placed all of the Canonical Gospels as being written between 40 and 65 AD?" Simple: he's wrong. What does eminence have to do with anything? They're all eminent. And most disagree with him on that. Other "eminent" scholars have disputed his dating, and you can find their writings. In fact, he was probably wrong because he was "eminent." He was an Anglican Bishop, for Christ's sake, for Peter's sake, for Luke's.... It's a sham of a mockery of a sham of two mockeries to be holding up what a Bishop believes about his religion as objective scholarship. And he came up with his theory in the 70s. Much rebuttal has occurred since then.

Of course I know about Q and Proto-Luke. And I know that Timothy was a scribe of Paul's and added stuff to his letters that were important to himself. He also edited Paul's letters after Paul died. It's generally known what that added stuff is, and doesn't change what I said at all.

As for the rest, you go into stuff that doesn't apply to what I said. "Religious" scholars usually believe he was resurrected in body before becoming Spirit later on. Many non-religious ones don't. It's not just my interpretation of what Paul said, it's also that of the scholars that make sense to me.

Also, I like certainty, and since almost nothing about those times is certain, I choose what most scholars "generally reckon" about something and state it flat out, instead of boring everyone with a "most reckon so" qualification for every thing I say. That's my writing style. And, like I said, this is a board, not a scholarly journal.

And you should know, I don't believe anything. I don't believe Christ was God or Son, and I don't believe he was resurrected in body or spirit. This is simply of intellectual, historical, and literary interest to me. So i have no beliefs to push and find conclusions for.
 
#32
Jokerman said:
^Thanks, Illuminattile. I usually don't like using nouns with the -ness form, which is a Latinism, because they don't usually flow well, but I left that in because the subtle difference between it and "profundity" said what I wanted better.

LL COOL PAC, I wasn't writing a scholarly paper in a historical journal. I was writing a post on Tupacboard. I'm not going to take the time to qualify every statement I make with a footnote to the relevant literature. The reader of my post should assume that what I say is my opinionated conclusions on what I read in the Bible and on the opinionated conclusions of scholars who know more than I, since this is not my main interest, and I haven't been studying it for 50 years like them. But a lot of them disagree on many points, so I've had to pick the expert opinions that made sense to me. Just as they did themselves.

"How do you explain that the eminent Dr John Robinson placed all of the Canonical Gospels as being written between 40 and 65 AD?" Simple: he's wrong. What does eminence have to do with anything? They're all eminent. And most disagree with him on that. Other "eminent" scholars have disputed his dating, and you can find their writings. In fact, he was probably wrong because he was "eminent." He was an Anglican Bishop, for Christ's sake, for Peter's sake, for Luke's.... It's a sham of a mockery of a sham of two mockeries to be holding up what a Bishop believes about his religion as objective scholarship. And he came up with his theory in the 70s. Much rebuttal has occurred since then.

Of course I know about Q and Proto-Luke. And I know that Timothy was a scribe of Paul's and added stuff to his letters that were important to himself. He also edited Paul's letters after Paul died. It's generally known what that added stuff is, and doesn't change what I said at all.

As for the rest, you go into stuff that doesn't apply to what I said. "Religious" scholars usually believe he was resurrected in body before becoming Spirit later on. Many non-religious ones don't. It's not just my interpretation of what Paul said, it's also that of the scholars that make sense to me.

Also, I like certainty, and since almost nothing about those times is certain, I choose what most scholars "generally reckon" about something and state it flat out, instead of boring everyone with a "most reckon so" qualification for every thing I say. That's my writing style. And, like I said, this is a board, not a scholarly journal.

And you should know, I don't believe anything. I don't believe Christ was God or Son, and I don't believe he was resurrected in body or spirit. This is simply of intellectual, historical, and literary interest to me. So i have no beliefs to push and find conclusions for.
Fair enough... I'm sorry... I know profoundness is a word. I honestly was just annoyed and tired at the time and released my pent up aggression upon you. I personally disagree with your views but at least you've clearly spent a lot of time thinking about your stance! Good on you... Sorry for being harsh although I imagine it reflected more badly upon myself than you. I still think the criticism of your post that I made is still robust in the main. I did not suggest that I adhered to Robinson's chronology of the birth of each Gospel, however, you did seemed to give the impression that there is unanimity of Theological opinion on the matter, and this simply isn't so. Referring to him as a Bishop may be used to denigrate his credibility but he was also an extraordinarily intelligent and academic man who would not dedicate his life to a lie. Although you mention that you are aware of the previous versions and proto-types of the Gospels you have not been able to rebut my point that it was likely that such sources contained similarity in their content. Peter, in his first letter I think, clearly states that Paul's theology is approved as orthodox by himself but, essentially, that those less well schooled can find them confusing and draw incorrect conclusions about Paul's theology from them. I am pretty sure that the orthodox stance at that point was that when Jesus was raised from the dead he returned in human form to be ascended later and assume a spiritual body at the right hand of the Father.

That you are supposedly objective in your Theological stand point. It means little to me what you do or do not believe. I am very impressed that you have clearly pored into many books in order to form a view, but your lack of belief merely tells me that you have a lack of conviction upon the matter. Surely those who are willing to risk their lives, in this life and in the next, upon whom they believe Jesus was and what he achieved are those who should be taken most seriously? Obviously if these peoples' views are incoherent or uninformed their beliefs should be disregarded. Essentially what I am getting at is that belief, or the absence of it, should not dictate how credible a source or view is upon this topic.
 

Bina

New Member
#33
LL COOL PAC said:
I'm sorry... How do you know when Mark's Gospel was written? I tihnk you are making pre-suppositions there possibly about certain predictions Jesus is supposed to have made...
Apparently, Mark's Gospel was the first to be written out of the four gospels in the new testament- or at least this is what i was taught. (It is the shortest and first to be made to help those keep faith in difficult times), then the other 3 were added, but there was no time reference as to when it was written.
 

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