China, Tibet and the Olympic Games

[hizzle?]

What are your thougts about all of this?

China's army killed a total of 99 Tibetans until now, 80 in Lhassa and 19 in the province of Gansu.

China's authorities also stated that the Dalai-lama is planning all of this violence to "disturb the political unity of China". (just to drop in a comment here, a cow is more violent than the Dalai-lama)

Now, China is talking about not broadcasting live the ceremonies from the Tiananmen square in fear of Tibetan protests.

Discuss.



My whole though about all of this is that China is just digging its social international grave. Although it will not affect its economic and trade talks with other countries, there will be generaly more repression from people around the world on their respective governements to do something about China's way of handeling democracy.

Also, I think that it's pretty pathetic to accuse the Dalai-Lama of violent actions... It's pretty stupid to think that people around the world (who know who the Dalai-Lama is) that the Dalai-Lama even thinks about violent things.

 

[masta247]

I've been chatting about it for past few weeks and I grew tired of it.
I have friends in China (thus I'm aware of the strenght of western media propaganda) and also analised that situation for past few days.

1. Don't boycot the olympics, it'd be a disaster if boycotts turned into something bigger
2. China is not America or Europe, different mentality and different mind state
3.They would turn Tibet into a parking lot if it became independant
4. Anybody who think that Chinese people should leave Tibet, first find enough amount of tanks to make them
5. I think Tibet deserves independence - it would be much worse for their economy but they could live off tourism.
They have their own culture and their own traditions, they should be independent.
The problem is that they are Chinese now and nobody can change that. Putting away Tibet's culture and pride, it's better for their economy that they're Chinese now. Of course Chinese people are wrong with all those killings but it's their mentality, it's communism and it's their way of shutting up uprising Tibetans.
They basically do the same thing that happened in Europe in 1940-1950s. Their government has to change into one that would "teach them" human rights because now they have their own vision of great country and it differs from ours. It'll be hard to change it.
No boycott will make a good effect.

 

[hizzle?]

The problem is that they are Chinese now and nobody can change that. Putting away Tibet's culture and pride, it's better for their economy that they're Chinese now. Of course Chinese people are wrong with all those killings but it's their mentality, it's communism and it's their way of shutting up uprising Tibetans.

Well..yeah... but would you have accepted to turn German back in 1944 because it was better for your economy?

 

[masta247]

Well..yeah... but would you have accepted to turn German back in 1944 because it was better for your economy?

that's why I said earlier that they have their own culture and their own national pride thus they should be independent BUT being Chinese boosts their economy. It's that good thing through all those bad stuff.
After the II world war we had communism here and we were "independent" but our economy sucked. If we were Germans our economy would be much better but because we have our own nation, own culture and own national pride it's better for us that we're independent.
Also we won the war and actually Germany had no power at all so we could be independent with no treat from Germans.
Tibet is in much worse situation.

 

[hizzle?]

Honestly I'm not even sure that they are taking any adventage of their economy...

And I understand what you are saying with Germans... same thing with Yugoslavia, but we were much more open to the world and much more personaly indenpendant than you guys.

 

[masta247]

Honestly I'm not even sure that they are taking any adventage of their economy...

And I understand what you are saying with Germans... same thing with Yugoslavia, but we were much more open to the world and much more personaly indenpendant than you guys.

yeah it would be impossible for most Polish people with national pride and all that stuff.

I think that Tibet gets some advantage if it comes to economy. They would be more backward if they were independent.
They get new factories and cities.

Solving the problem with Chinese communism and making them civilized is the only way to change anything but imo it's nearly impossible. They have a different vision of leading community and different plans for the future.
It would be as hard like making north Korea democratic.
Both China and n.Korea are major powers and convincing them that communism is bad and western human rights are good is like convincing America into communism.

 

[hizzle?]

Well I'm on the thin line between communism and social-democracy and I'm convinced that the way they are handling their country is absolutely stupid.

 

[masta247]

Well I'm on the thin line between communism and social-democracy and I'm convinced that the way they are handling their country is absolutely stupid.

there's a giant difference between real communism (non-existent one) and the "communism" from XX century in eastern europe or in modern n.Korea and China.

Communists had great visions of united nation, rights for everyone, money for working class etc. but in result all we got was millions of people dead for stupid reasons, demolished economy and censorship.

Communism would be good if it worked the way it should but it never did. Paradoxally it did everything otherwise.

 

[Chronic]

I don't think a few people dying should stand in the way of some great games.

 

[Universal]

cancel the games all together, tibet is the heartland of bhuddism and for it to be so viciously attacked by China is unacceptable. That's like Italy starting a war on the Vatican

 

[masta247]

cancel the games all together, tibet is the heartland of bhuddism and for it to be so viciously attacked by China is unacceptable. That's like Italy starting a war on the Vatican

Cancelling games will do nothing good.
It will hurt casual, innocent people who got work, finally got money to feed their families and it's not 100,120 innocent people but millions.
Chinese government doesn't care much about olimpics.
They don't care about what will western world say.
Tho Olimpics give a great chance for China to advance.
Look at how much they advance for the past 50 years.
Don't expect them to 100% honor human rights considering that 50 years ago most of them didn't have shoes, didn't know about world outside their own province and couldn't count. Also human life was not worth much.
Chinese people had to kill their own children, kill other people for stupid reasons and "police" killed people for minor crimes.
They should evolve, I hope that the more culture they get, the better their nation will be. And I also mean human rights. They already made a giant change.

I'm also really against any aggression there but I don't have an army to stand against China. Even if I had I wouldn't do anything but support their positive growth.
The truth is that there's not much we can do but we should support any cultural event going on in China as it makes them more humane.

 

[Rukas]

I dont think it is right to cancel the games now, but I dont think China should have gotten them in the first place; their treatment of Tibet is nothing new!!!

I have a bad feeling some Munich type shit will go down at these games though, I just dont trust China's security.

Anyway, for the record, I am for a FREE TIBET.

 

[hizzle?]

there's a giant difference between real communism (non-existent one) and the "communism" from XX century in eastern europe or in modern n.Korea and China.

Communists had great visions of united nation, rights for everyone, money for working class etc. but in result all we got was millions of people dead for stupid reasons, demolished economy and censorship.

Communism would be good if it worked the way it should but it never did. Paradoxally it did everything otherwise.

Yeah I know. But I come from a country that was the closest to the Communism that Marx preached. Of course, there was some cencorship, but we had payed vacations, free schools, free sport inscriptions, free transport, the right to criticize the governement, the right to say what we wanted in our songs, etc.

 

[hizzle?]

I dont think it is right to cancel the games now, but I dont think China should have gotten them in the first place; their treatment of Tibet is nothing new!!!

I have a bad feeling some Munich type shit will go down at these games though, I just dont trust China's security.

Anyway, for the record, I am for a FREE TIBET.

everybody in their right mind is... But you can't tell that openly to the Chinese governement... they are an economic and financial powerhouse... Imagine if the Aussie PM said that China is an awful country, disrespecting human rights, etc. All your imports and exports from/to China will be shut down...

China has the economic argument and power to do whatever they please in this world.

 

[ArtsyGirl]

I think its a shame everybody is too scared to stand up for Tibet for fear of the money they could lose. This atrocity has been going on for a long time, back then it was ignored too. For China to try and accuse the Dalai Lama of being a terrorist explains their need to destroy the religious mentality of Tibet. They want to censor any freedom of speech which then causes these uprisings then blame it on their religious leader. I cant see how boycotting the Olympics wont send a message, the Chinese Government has spent 5.6 billion U.S on the Olympics. No government would spend that much unless they had equal or more to gain in tourism, ticket and broadcasting sales etc. That would be sending a message, but that wont happen because China has too much power on our Economy's.

 

[masta247]

yes but Chinese government won't gain much because of the Olympic games.
Casual, innocent people will gain a lot tho.

Cancelling those games would be much worse than doing nothing.

It's not a good way to approach China, world governments should talk about it with Chinese government and maybe in the long run it could change something.
The problem is that casual people in the western world care about it much more than their governments (who are the only ones able to change something) that don't do anything to help Tibet

 

[ArtsyGirl]

What does casual, innocent people in Tibet gain? They have been forced to be part of China, what do they get?
I agree our Governments should do more, there is no sign they will though so all that is left is for Tibet to fight for their freedom alone.

 

[masta247]

What does casual, innocent people in Tibet gain? They have been forced to be part of China, what do they get?
I agree our Governments should do more, there is no sign they will though so all that is left is for Tibet to fight for their freedom alone.

I meant that casual, innocent Chinese people will gain a lot because of the Olimpic games.
People in Tibet don't get much I guess.
Chinese built a few factories there tho.

Unfortunately in this situation western world doesn't help and probably also won't help much in the future.
I wish western governments discussed this whole thing with Chinese government.

 

[ArtsyGirl]

Conversation with the Chinese will do nothing to change their stance on Tibet. From the very beginning what they said they will do and what they actually did are very different. The government of the day built the invasion on deception and I doubt very much is different in todays Chinese Government considering their ridiculous claim the Dalai Lama is a violent person.

 

[Glockmatic]

What does casual, innocent people in Tibet gain? They have been forced to be part of China, what do they get?

They become modernized. Roads, hospitals and education. In a way they were actually "freed" by the Chinese. Look at the history of Tibet and how they were ruled. They had feudalism even in the 1950s! I'm not saying that Chinese communism is the best they have, but it's better than being a serf.