Debate on lower drinking age bubbling up

SicC

Dying Breed
Staff member
#1
Proponents say current restriction drives teen alcohol use underground

Over the strong objection of federal safety officials, a quiet movement to lower the legal drinking age to 18 is taking root as advocates argue that teenagers who are allowed to vote and fight for their country should also be able to enjoy a beer or two.
The proposal, which is the subject of a national petition drive by the National Youth Rights Association, has been studied in a handful of states in recent years, including Florida, Wisconsin, Vermont and Missouri, where supporters are pushing a ballot initiative.

Opponents of the idea point to a reported rise in binge drinking as teenagers increasingly turn to hard liquor as proof that minors should not be allowed to drink, but proponents look at the same data and draw the opposite conclusion.

"Raising the drinking age to 21 was passed with the very best of intentions, but it's had the very worst of outcomes," said David J. Hanson, an alcohol policy expert at the State University of New York-Potsdam. "Just like during national Prohibition, the law has pushed and forced underage drinking and youthful drinking underground, where we have no control over it."

But Mark Rosenker, chairman of the National Transportation Safety Board, countered: "Why would we repeal or weaken laws that save lives? It doesn't make sense."

Different laws in different states
As it happens, there is no such thing as a "federal legal drinking age." Many states allow minors to drink alcohol — some of them without restriction, others under certain circumstances, such as the presence of a parent or other guardian.

The phrase refers instead to a patchwork of state laws adopted in the mid-1980s under pressure from Congress, which threatened in 1984 to withhold 10 percent of federal highway funds from states that did not prohibit selling alcohol to those under the age of 21. By 1988, all 50 states had complied.

Libertarian groups and some conservative economic foundations, seeing the age limits as having been extorted by Washington, have long championed lowering the drinking age. But in recent years, many academics and non-partisan policy groups have joined their cause for a different reason: The age restriction does not work, they say. Drinking has gone on behind closed doors and underground, where responsible adults cannot keep an eye on it.

"It does not reduce drinking. It has simply put young adults at greater risk," said John M. McCardell, former president of Middlebury College in Vermont, who this year set up a non-profit organization called Choose Responsibility to push for a lower drinking age.

McCardell offers what he calls a simple challenge:

"The law was changed in 1984, and the law had a very specific purpose, and that was to prohibit drinking among those under the age of 21," he said. "The only way to measure the success of that law is to ask ourselves whether, 23 years later, those under 21 are not drinking."

So are they?

The federal government's National Survey on Drug Use and Health found that in 2005, the most recent year for which complete figures are available, 85 percent of 20-year-old Americans reported that they had used alcohol. Two out of five said they had binged — that is, consumed five or more drinks at one time — within the previous month.

"The evidence is very clear," McCardell said. "It has had no effect."

James C. Fell, a former federal highway safety administrator who is a senior researcher on alcohol policy with the Pacific Institute for Research and Evaluation, acknowledged that "it's not a perfect law. It doesn't totally prevent underage drinking."

But Fell said the age restriction "does save lives. We have the evidence."

Lower deaths rates disputed
The evidence, widely touted by Rosenker of the NTSB, Mothers Against Drunk Driving and other activist groups, rests in a study by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, or NHTSA, which estimated that from 1975 to 2003, higher drinking ages saved 22,798 lives on America's roadways.

"Twenty-five thousand lives is a lot of people to set aside when you're looking at a current problem," said Brian Demers, a 20-year-old student at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology who is a member of MADD's board of directors.

That figure is disputed by proponents of lowering the drinking age. They have questioned the NHTSA study, which did not explain how it arrived at its estimate. Moreover, it counted any accident as "alcohol-related" if any participant was legally drunk — including victims who may not have been responsible for the accident.

"The methodology used has been widely criticized by scholars," said Hanson, of SUNY-Potsdam, who called the report "really more of a guesstimate" that showed only a correlation of numbers, not a causal relationship. In fact, he said, alcohol-related traffic fatalities among minor drivers were already declining before 1984, when the drinking-age measure was passed.

Barrett Seaman, author of "Binge: What Your College Student Won't Tell You," echoed Hanson's assessment, saying, "Those statistics are a little suspicious."

Even so, Rosenker said Tuesday, alcohol is still the leading cause of death among teenagers in highway crashes.

"The data show that when teens drink and drive they are highly unlikely to use seat belts," he said. "These are the facts, and it would be a serious mistake and a national tragedy to weaken existing drinking age laws."

Adults 'written out of the equation'
To McCardell, however, the real problem is that we are not teaching teenagers how to drink responsibly.

Choose Responsibility proposes lowering the drinking age to 18, but only in conjunction with "drinking licenses," similar to driver's licenses, mandating alcohol education for those ages 18 to 21.

"Education works," McCardell said, but "it's never been tried. Now it's mandatory only after you've been convicted of DUI. That is not an act of genius."

Choose Responsibility and its allies face a tough task convincing the public. In a Gallup poll released last week, 77 percent of Americans opposed lowering the drinking age to 18. But Seaman argued that it was the wisdom of the drinker that mattered, not his or her age.

"The problem we have is that since the 21-year-old age limit has been in effect, we have effectively written adults out of the equation, so that they really have nothing to do with young people who are drinking alcohol furtively, viewing alcohol as a forbidden fruit and drinking to excesses that I don't think were evident back in the years before the law was passed," said Seaman, who lived on the campuses of 12 U.S. and Canadian colleges while researching his book.

"If you lower that drinking age — make drinking no longer a forbidden fruit but rather something that younger adults do with older adults who have learned how to handle alcohol responsibly — then you reduce those behaviors rather than increase them," he said.

Ron Allen of NBC News and Tamron Hall and Monica Novotny of MSNBC contributed to this report.
 

S. Fourteen

Well-Known Member
#2
These guys must be parents who have zero idea on what their kids are doing.

"make drinking no longer a forbidden fruit but rather something that younger adults do with older adults who have learned how to handle alcohol responsibly"

dream land alert, dream land alert. must be a liberal.

first of all, who says older adults drink responsibly? and what makes them think that 18 year olds want to hang out and drink with "older adults"? the real drinking starts when 18/19 year olds head off to college where 21 year olds supply alcohol. lets lower that age.

ps. in my high school, it was easier to get weed and cocaine.
 

PuffnScruff

Well-Known Member
#4
in my high school it was easier to get weed and coke too

here is what i see happening. we will see more 18-20 year old males going to prison for rape because they got a 14-17 year old drunk and hit it while she was passed out
 

FroDawgg

Well-Known Member
#5
well, kids as young as 12 and maybe younger are drinking, so should we just lower the age to 10? i don't think so. parents need to be parents, which includes the role of educator.
 

The.Menace

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#6
here is what i see happening. we will see more 18-20 year old males going to prison for rape because they got a 14-17 year old drunk and hit it while she was passed out
Sorry. Bullshit. You are responsible for your actions and to say a rape has anything 2 do with the legal drinkin age is wrong, since it blames the guilt on the liquor which can never be the case if we talk about a crime as condemnable as rape.

Besides that, I think that topic is nothing but affectation, at least in the US. If you drink at the age of 19 it's all bad and terrible, if a 50 year old father of 3 kids drinks 15 beers while watchin' a football game it's all ok...

Nowhere in europe the legal drinkin age is as high as 21 and the system didn't collapse so........
 

PuffnScruff

Well-Known Member
#7
that wasn't what i was saying at all

my point was that not many 21 year olds hang out with people under the age of 18. 18 year olds do hang out with people under their age. it usually ranges from 14-and up. they party with these kids. if the drinking age becomes 18 then people that are younger than that age will have an easier chance of getting their hands on alcohol. teenage guys do stupid things and get stupid thoughts going through their heads. to say it is unlikely or bullshit that 18 year old guys, or any age around that, wont be thinking about how they are going to get an underaged girl drunk to hit it is not realistic.

europe and other countries that dont have a drinking age, the people that are born there are used to it. they are born into these laws so it doesn't really affect them. but in the states it would change almost at the snap of the fingers so you would see a bit of crazyness for some time.
 

The.Menace

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#10
europe and other countries that dont have a drinking age, the people that are born there are used to it. they are born into these laws so it doesn't really affect them. but in the states it would change almost at the snap of the fingers so you would see a bit of crazyness for some time.
good point.
 

Sebastian

Well-Known Member
#11
to lower the legal drinking age to 18 is taking root as advocates argue that teenagers who are allowed to vote and fight for their country should also be able to enjoy a beer or two.
Thats it. Nothing more to discuss.
 
#12
i just think it should stay how it is. i drink less since i've turned 21. bing drank a lot less. kids get it anyway but i dont think that means they should drop it down to 18 cuz people would get all crazy for quite some time like someone said above me.
 

S. Fourteen

Well-Known Member
#13
Thats it. Nothing more to discuss.
I think the recruitment of 18 year olds has more to do with need of more soldiers. The same reason why the US Army is recruiting more high school drop-outs. Maybe people that make money off alcohol wants more costumers? ey? I think alcohol is a disgusting substance. It does more harm than good, especially at a young age.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#14
They actually wanna push it up here in Holland. From 16 to 18.

I have serious doubts about whether lowering/highering drinking limits are going to have a serious effect. Lowering it in a country like the USA, where mostly the laws are strict, will cause a brief "run"' by people who "suddenly" are allowed to get legally drunk, like Puffy pointed out.

If here in Holland they succeed in kicking it up to 18, maybe 2 out of 5 supermarkets check better who's buying a bottle of wine, that's it. You won't see the bars handing over a third of their customers.
 

AmerikazMost

Well-Known Member
#15
I'm honestly surprised that more people haven't been utterly in favor lowering it.

That being said though, I think we should either have no age limit at all, or it should even be raised (and prohibiting it wouldn't necesarily be a bad thing).

Alcohol has damaging effects on the brain, even in the "young adult" ages. It can significantly inhibit development and the ability to learn and do higher brain processes. It's ironic then that some kids go to college and end up hurting their brains more than helping them.

Not to mention alcohol is responsible for 90-95% of rapes and violent crimes on college campuses in the United States.

If we were to get rid of the age limit, we'd probably be able to see significant decreases alcohol abuse in about 10-15 years (after probably a shock increase at first). If we raised the age--to say 25--we'd probably do a lot to deter alcoholism, binge drinking, violent crimes, brain underdevelopment, and automobile fatalaties. Obviously, it wouldn't eradicate it, but it'd probably help.

And the "old enough to vote/go to war, old enough to drink" argument is ridiculous. What inherent right do people have to consume what in essence is a poison? People at eighteen can't do a lot of things--snort coke, collect social security, run for President--why do they have a right to drink?



By the way, I'm 20 years old in college and plan on getting drunk tonight.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#16
I'm honestly surprised that more people haven't been utterly in favor lowering it.

That being said though, I think we should either have no age limit at all, or it should even be raised (and prohibiting it wouldn't necesarily be a bad thing).

Alcohol has damaging effects on the brain, even in the "young adult" ages. It can significantly inhibit development and the ability to learn and do higher brain processes. It's ironic then that some kids go to college and end up hurting their brains more than helping them.

Not to mention alcohol is responsible for 90-95% of rapes and violent crimes on college campuses in the United States.

If we were to get rid of the age limit, we'd probably be able to see significant decreases alcohol abuse in about 10-15 years (after probably a shock increase at first). If we raised the age--to say 25--we'd probably do a lot to deter alcoholism, binge drinking, violent crimes, brain underdevelopment, and automobile fatalaties. Obviously, it wouldn't eradicate it, but it'd probably help.

And the "old enough to vote/go to war, old enough to drink" argument is ridiculous. What inherent right do people have to consume what in essence is a poison? People at eighteen can't do a lot of things--snort coke, collect social security, run for President--why do they have a right to drink?



By the way, I'm 20 years old in college and plan on getting drunk tonight.

Since when can't you snort coke at age 18? Legally, no one's allowed to do it anyway, so even a 4 month old baby can snort sos.

And what inherent right do people have to consume what is in essence a poison? Well, apart from the fact that we don't want the state telling me what I can or can not stuff down my own goddamn throat, going out on the sauce is dangerous and bad for your health, yes, but moderate alcohol consumption, a glass of wine during dinner, a beer during the sports match, isn't bad for you at all.

If you want to get rid of all the booze I've got a hefty list for you with things in western society that should also be banned. Let's start with fast food chains, then.

And I don't know exactly how it is in America, but most Western countries haven't done away with the draft totally. At least in Holland, the draft is "postponed". The state still holds themselves the right to ship me off to war, and I'm quite sure the American government has a similar "stick behind the door" as well. So as long as the government has "the inherent right" to get me killed, I have "the inherent right" to get drunk.

Maybe the 18 army age vs. drinking 21 age isn't the best rational argument one can chuck out in this debate, but it sure as hell sheds a light on the moral side(and then particularly from governmental point of view) of this whole issue.
 

masta247

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#17
does official drinking age seriously changes ANYTHING?

Here 18 is legal for drinking but anyway nobody respects that.
You can buy a booze if you're 15-16 without any problems and nobody will chase you for that unless you'll drink it in a public place (which is "illegal" anyway) and get caught by cops - with that difference that if you're above 18 and drinking you get a 100$ fine, if you're below 18 all they can do to you is take you're alcohol and leave you alone.
So hell I could even risk and say that people below 18 drink more than when they turn 18 and it gets legal for them. It takes away the pleasure.
 

Sebastian

Well-Known Member
#18
Maybe the 18 army age vs. drinking 21 age isn't the best rational argument one can chuck out in this debate, but it sure as hell sheds a light on the moral side(and then particularly from governmental point of view) of this whole issue.
I mucho agree.
 

S O F I

Administrator
Staff member
#20
Maybe the 18 army age vs. drinking 21 age isn't the best rational argument one can chuck out in this debate, but it sure as hell sheds a light on the moral side(and then particularly from governmental point of view) of this whole issue.
I'm somewhat against that argument. I love 2pac, but it's a layman's way of thinking about the matter. If we choose to ignore the politics that went into making the legal age 21 for a second, it is believed that a person under the age of 21 will not make the same smart decisions regarding drinking, drinking and driving, excessive drinking, etc that a 21 year old would. Not to sound barbaric, but a person at the age of 18 is physically and mentally ready to pick up a weapon and fight; we all know the US Army is not full of college graduates. However, a person at the age of 18 is not believed to be mentally ready to drink responsibly.
 

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