USS Liberty Discussion

[Kareem]

Since Morris said we should make a thread about the USS Liberty so he can "Discredit" an defend the "innocent" Israel who would never fire upon innocents, I agree this would be a good discussion. No need for flaming of anyone, everyone's entitled to their beliefs, I will post my info first.

Pre-attack reconnaissance. Israel says there was no pre-attack reconnaissance. Any aircraft we saw, they say, were high in the sky carrying troops to the battlefield. Not so. Here is an Israeli reconnaissance airplane that circled the ship about an hour before the attack. The pilot was heard reporting to HQ that he saw an American flag and men sunning themselves on deck.

Egyptian horse carrier El Quseir (This is what Israel says they thought they were attacking)

USS Liberty arriving Valletta, Malta
Her American flag is clearly visible
This is the same size flag that Israeli forces claim they could not see

"I was never satisfied with the Israeli explanation. . . . Through diplomatic channels we refused to accept their explanations. I didn't believe them then, and I don't believe them to this day. The attack was outrageous "
-- US Secretary of State Dean Rusk




"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."
-- CIA Director Richard Helms




"I can tell you for an absolute certainty (from intercepted communications) that the Israelis knew they were attacking an American ship."
-- NSA Deputy Director Oliver Kirby




"That the Liberty could have been mistaken for the Egyptian supply ship El Quseir is unbelievable"
-- Special Assistant to the President Clark Clifford, in his report to President Lyndon Johnson





"Never before in the history of the United States Navy has a Navy Board of Inquiry ignored the testimony of American military eyewitnesses and taken, on faith, the word of their attackers.
-- Captain Richard F. Kiepfer, Medical Corps, US Navy (retired), USS Liberty Survivor





"To suggest that they [the IDF] couldn't identify the ship is ... ridiculous. ... Anybody who could not identify the Liberty could not tell the difference between the White House and the Washington Monument."
-- Admiral Thomas Moorer, Chief of Naval Operations and later Chairman, Joint Chiefs of Staff, quoted in The Washington Post, June 15, 1991, p. 14


speak on it, keep it civil

 

[Jurhum]

^ Those people are American there fore their accounts of the incident don't count. Israel say it was an accident, then it is an accident.

 

[Morris]

Pre-attack reconnaissance. Israel says there was no pre-attack reconnaissance.

That's not true. Israel did do pre attack reconnaissance. Hell, if they didn't do pre attack reconnaissance, that would bolster Israel's contention that it was an accident, because the USS Liberty was in a war zone in waters where it wasn't supposed to be or scheduled to be.

The pilot was heard reporting to HQ that he saw an American flag and men sunning themselves on deck.

American spy planes have radio transmission refuting this. The Israelis identified it as an Egyptian ship both before and during the attacks according to radio transmissions that American spy planes captured. ( http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/07/09/uss.liberty.tapes/index.html )

"For your info, it is apparently an Arab ship," says ground control.
"Roger," says the pilot.
"It is an Egyptian supply ship," says ground control.
"Roger," comes the response.

"I don't think there's any question that anyone who reads these tapes would be absolutely convinced there was the fog of war out there," Cristol said.

Later on the tape, the Israelis sound confused and concerned. Ground control orders the helicopter pilots to look for survivors and to check their nationality.

"If they speak Arabic -- Egyptians -- you're taking them to Al-Arish. If they speak English -- non-Egyptians -- you're taking them to Lod. Is that clear?" says ground control.

USS Liberty arriving Valletta, Malta
Her American flag is clearly visible
This is the same size flag that Israeli forces claim they could not see

The American flag is visible unless the conditions aren't windy enough to unfurl it on its pole.

Anyway, I'd rather see what you guys come up with for why Israel would deliberately attack its ally's ship when it was already at war with 3 neighboring nations. A deliberate attack would obviously require a motive.

 

[AmerikazMost]

^ I scanned through some stuff, and the reason given that I found was that they did not want the U.S. intercepting information that they were attacking the Golan Heights.

 

[Morris]

I scanned through some stuff, and the reason given that I found was that they did not want the U.S. intercepting information that they were attacking the Golan Heights.

That's the most common conspiracy theory motive. It's also the most reasonable, but it's still absurd. On the face of it, why would Israel attack an ally over such a small piece of land when the world would obviously find out eventually that it took the Heights?

Moreover, the factual problem with it is that the Americans already knew Israel might be planning an offensive against the Golan Heights before Israel even started it, and before Israel began attacking the ship.

Thus, on June 8, the American consulate in Jerusalem reported that Israel was retaliating for Syria's bombardment of Israeli villages "in an apparent prelude to large-scale attack in effort to seize Heights overlooking border kibbutzim."

Israel's officials were working in close concert with the American administration throughout the war.

IDF Chief of Staff, Gen. Yitzhak Rabin, informed the U.S. Naval Attaché in Tel Aviv, Cmdr. Ernest Carl Castle, that Israel would defend its coast with every means at its disposal. Unidentified vessels would be sunk, Rabin advised; the United States should either acknowledge its ships in the area or remove them. The Americans provided Israel with no information on the Liberty.

Here's a question: if Israel was going to intentionally sink its ally's ship, why use fully marked and identifiable torpedo boats instead of submarines?

 

[Morris]

"...the board of inquiry (concluded) that the Israelis knew exactly what they were doing in attacking the Liberty."
-- CIA Director Richard Helms

The CIA Reports themselves disagree with that statement. http://libertyincident.com/docs/CIAreports.pdf I've pasted some pertinent excerpts:

intercepted conversations between the helicopter pilots and the control tower at Hatzor leave little doubt that the Israelis failed to identify the Liberty as a US ship before or after the attack.

Although the Liberty is 200 feet longer than the Egyptian transport El Quesir, it could easily be mistaken for the latter vessel by an overzealous pilot.

In fact, none of the several inquiries concluded that Israel deliberately attacked the USS Liberty. ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_attack_on_USS_Liberty )

C.I.A. report June 13, 1967 no malice; attack a mistake

U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry June 18, 1967 mistaken identity

Report by Clark Clifford July 18, 1967 no evidence

Senate Select Committee on Intelligence 1979

National Security Agency 1981 Mistaken identity

House Armed Services Cmtee 1991/1992

 

[Morris]

Considering how often many of you bring up the USS Liberty to bash Israel, I'm surprised this thread's not getting more posts.

 

[Glockmatic]

What I don't get is why would israel attack a US ship on purpose? Israel gains nothing in that attack

 

[Kareem]

Considering how often many of you bring up the USS Liberty to bash Israel, I'm surprised this thread's not getting more posts.

me too, I thought there'd be alot more posts. as far my rebuttal.

the 1967 CIA reports of course say "mistake yadda yadda" according to what I have read many CIA agents along with the Admiral of the Liberty an her surviving crew were told they would face court martial if they pursued the matter any further. I believe the Admiral was specifically told, to shut his mouth an go along with the mistaken identy excuse. The current lawsuit filed against the government of Israel by the surving members of the Liberty, which I believe was Filed in March or May of 2006 www.ussliberty.org is very interesting, I suggest giving it a read its very factual with many quotes including an IDF pilot who says the attack was on purpose.


As far as why would Israel attack one of its allies or innocents on purpose? I dunno, maybe the same reason they shoot 7 an 8 yearold children in the head "cause they may have a bomb". Really I dont know why they would but from what I have read and even admission from those in President Johnsons Admin even state it was done deliberately, but covered up at the time. Anyway I look forward to more replies then this!

 

[Morris]

what I have read many CIA agents along with the Admiral of the Liberty an her surviving crew were told they would face court martial if they pursued the matter any further.

Actually only one agent, a guy by the name of Boston, recanted his original testimony years later and said that Admiral Kidd told him it was a coverup. Boston recanted his original testimony and said this about Kidd after Kidd had died, conveniently.

As far as why would Israel attack one of its allies or innocents on purpose? I dunno, maybe the same reason they shoot 7 an 8 yearold children in the head "cause they may have a bomb".

There's a huge difference between attacking an ally and killing a Palestinian child. They're not allied with the Palestinians.

Anyway, if you read most of the quotes that have been drudged up, the officials say that they can't believe it was mistaken identity. They're not citing facts: every inquiry and report that documented the evidence concluded that Israel didn't deliberately attack an American ship.

Perhaps the best question regarding the conspiracy theories is why would the United States cover up for Israel if Israel was intentionally attacking American targets? Did Stalin cover it up for Hitler when the Nazis invaded the Soviets? No country would stand for their ally intentionally attacking them if they knew it was intentional.

 

[Duke]

Probably not intentional since that would make little sense. Stupid? Yes. Maybe even convenient, considering reports that Israeli forces were doing some shit near the Heights that couldn't stomach daylight which the Liberty may picked up.


BTW, that very first picture. Did Israel use old Dakota's (looks like one) for recon purposes? Sounds..silly that'd they use large ungainly craft for that.

 

[Morris]

Maybe even convenient, considering reports that Israeli forces were doing some shit near the Heights that couldn't stomach daylight which the Liberty may picked up.

In an earlier post in this thread, I already showed that the American consulate in Jerusalem had told the government that Israel was likely planning an offensive on the Heights before Israel hit the Liberty. Israel's border villages were being bombarded by Syrian forces on the Heights and thus Israel started retaliatory strikes.

Besides, do you honestly think Israel would risk its most important alliance over a piece of land as small as the Golan Heights? No way. If they were going to be "convenient," why would Israel inconveniently use fully identified and marked torpedo boats to fire at the Liberty?