The Presidential Election: Beyond the War, National Security, and Killing Babies

[AmerikazMost]

Today the Republican Presidential candidates held a debate focusing almost solely economics. Hence the inspiration for this thread.

It seems these days that any discussion of mainstream politics or elections disinegrates into a quarrel over the war or to what extent has Bush completely fucked us over. To me, there are so many other important issues that tend to be marginalized that I think need to be brought into the fray.

For instance, I look at the massive sub-mainstream support that Ron Paul is garnering, and I think, "Why?" Not that the man does not have any good qualities--probably better than most of the other Republicans--but does the man's ideology not become a factor? Does the idea of having a libertarian, a man inherently opposed to the notion of government intervention, running the government not turn anyone off?



Or maybe I'm wrong. That's why I made this thread. I want this to be a discussion about all of the candidates--from Clinton to Biden, from Romney to Paul--and their views. Emphasis on the views. I don't want Hillary or Fred Thompson bashing, I want a real look at what they stand for, and your feelings about those stances.

What's important to you? Who represents that? What is gained and lost by a candidates proposals?

 

[PuffnScruff]

paul's support is mainly from the "9/11 was an inside job" crowd that think he is going to tell them what they want to hear.

the sad part about this election is that was off and running ten minutes before the polls closed in 06 and that so far we really have no good canidates that would make a good leader. we have hypocrites, socialists, flip floppers, liars, and people that are just weak in general.

 

[S O F I]

I'd give $5 if somebody would tell me where the 5 million came from.

He's opposed to pretty much any gov't agency. Ron Paul would eradicate the CIA, the FBI, legalize marijuana (yessssiir, lol), and a bunch of other radical things. Of course, even if he was president, he wouldn't be able to get it done. I think a libertiaran running this country would be a blessing for the common people from a social well-being perspective. On the other hand, the US would lose its position as a global power. I don't even know why I'm saying this, he's not going to win.

Anyway, people are saying Hilary is going to win. I'm not sure how I feel about that.

 

[Devious]

paul's support is mainly from the "9/11 was an inside job" crowd that think he is going to tell them what they want to hear.

the sad part about this election is that was off and running ten minutes before the polls closed in 06 and that so far we really have no good canidates that would make a good leader. we have hypocrites, socialists, flip floppers, liars, and people that are just weak in general.

aren't those the same candidates you get every year? in fact, isn't that the lineup for every political election pretty much anywhere in the world? lying, cheating, flip flopping, etc. aren't those the defining characteristics of a politician? some are just better at it than others. the sad thing is that in many ways this is exactly what we want. no one wants their politicians to tell them the truth, the public couldn't handle it.

but i can already tell you who will be the next US president, and i can almost guarantee you that i'll be right come next November: Barack Obama. don't ask me why i think it will be him, but i have a very strong feeling about that.

PS: if Hillary Clinton wins, i'll fuck a goat. not going to happen.

 

[PuffnScruff]

honestly i don't see obama getting the ticket. the only way i see him ever becoming president is if he is offered vp spot with hitlary...err i mean hillary. but that will all come down to either his maturity or his ego. i think he could become president one day but i really don't see him getting the bid from his party. maybe if he broke away from the party and ran 3rd party but that would still be a big long shot.

and sofi, i'm telling you, paul has a huge support from the 9/11 CT idiots. they are giving him money like it's their job.

but if anoyne really wanted to know what hillary was about just read her quotes

"We're going to take things away from you on behalf of the common good!"
6/29/04

"It's time for a new beginning, for an end to government of the few, by the few, and for the few...... And to replace it with shared responsibility for shared prosperity."
5/29/07

"(We) ...can't just let business as usual go on, and that means something has to be taken away from some people."
6/4/07

"We have to build a political consensus and that requires people to give up a little bit of their own turf in order to create this common ground."
6/4/07

"I certainly think the free-market has failed."
6/4/07

"I think it's time to send a clear message to what has become the most profitable sector in (the) entire economy that they are being watched."
9/2/05

if you really want to see what life under hillary would be like just watch this
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfip7ltY13g[/YOUTUBE]
i'm half joking half serious with posting this video

 

[S O F I]

Obama is not winning this election. Even Black people don't support him. You think liberal arts college students have a huge influence on the electoral college? lol

 

[Preach]

lol hillary's a commie!

seriously though, i'm not up to speed on us domestic politics, but that's an interesting insight.

 

[Casey]

I'd like Barack to win. I think he would be a great leader and that's what the US needs, a radical great leader that is the opposite of George "Moron" Bush.

Honestly, though, from what I'm hearing it doesn't seem likely. So I say go Hilary. I'd like her to be president as well.

 

[AmerikazMost]

Puff, have you been listening to Milton Friedman sound bytes?

 

[Glockmatic]

As a Canadian I would like Obama to win, he seems "hip" and charismatic like Bill Clinton (who we Canadians LOVE), but I don't think he'll win this election.

 

[PuffnScruff]

I'd like Barack to win. I think he would be a great leader and that's what the US needs, a radical great leader that is the opposite of George "Moron" Bush.

Honestly, though, from what I'm hearing it doesn't seem likely. So I say go Hilary. I'd like her to be president as well.

lol you say the U.S. needs a real leader that isn't radical but then you say you wont hillary to win? don't know too much about hillary do you? if you really think bush is so radical you should read up on hillary. she has the biggest socialist agenda than anyone running. it still amazes me how many people are ignorant on hillary and just the clintons in general but are usually the same people that hate bush.

 

[AmerikazMost]

lol you say the U.S. needs a real leader that isn't radical but then you say you wont hillary to win? don't know too much about hillary do you? if you really think bush is so radical you should read up on hillary. she has the biggest socialist agenda than anyone running. it still amazes me how many people are ignorant on hillary and just the clintons in general but are usually the same people that hate bush.

Not to sound condescending, because I really don't mean to be, but can you differentiate between social democracy and socialism? And if you can, is just that the differentiation doesn't matter to you? Or that you believe that the Clintons are really socialists?

 

[PuffnScruff]

Not to sound condescending, because I really don't mean to be, but can you differentiate between social democracy and socialism? And if you can, is just that the differentiation doesn't matter to you? Or that you believe that the Clintons are really socialists?

yes i can. but things hillary says still sound like she reads from the works of karl marx before she goes to bed at night. i don't think president clinton is really a socialist. he is far from the great president like many people like to believe he is or make him out to be but i dont see him as a socialist. hillary on the other hand has proven through writtings and speeches that she is pretty close to being a full blown socialist. that is fine if you agree with that thing, i think you have said in the past you do or at least to some degree. but i don't. i don't think the founding fathers of our country had socialism of any form in mind when creating our country. her actions and words speak pretty clear.

i dont believe in regulations on a market to limit the economy, which is something you can get with a social democracy. i believe in indivdual rights, something that can get limited with a social democracy or socialsim in general. i dont believe in limiting individual choice, which can be limited under a social democracy or socialism.

 

[Casey]

lol you say the U.S. needs a real leader that isn't radical but then you say you wont hillary to win? don't know too much about hillary do you? if you really think bush is so radical you should read up on hillary. she has the biggest socialist agenda than anyone running. it still amazes me how many people are ignorant on hillary and just the clintons in general but are usually the same people that hate bush.

I said you guys do need a radical leader. And I think you guys could do with a fresh breeze of socialism in your country. Marx was a genius.

 

[Devious]

hmmm, well i made my comment about Obama winning before i heard about "Pingate" lol. apparently Barack isn't a patriot because he doesn't wear a US Flag pin on his lapel like the other candidates. has this political climate in the US gotten so sad and pathetic that you now judge the worthiness of candidates based on whether or not they are wearing a pin? American media is silly. talk about blowing something out of proportion. kinda like when the race first started up, Fox News did this thing on Fred Thompson claiming that because he once played a white supremacist in a movie, he just might actually be one. LMAO.

PS: i still think Obama will win, but maybe that's because i think the American people would like to see a democrat in the white house, and there really aren't any strong democratic candidates other than Hitlary (lol that was a good one puff). or who knows? maybe Mr. 9/11 will get in (Rudy as President? just thinking it makes me laugh )

 

[Kareem]

hmmm, well i made my comment about Obama winning before i heard about "Pingate" lol. apparently Barack isn't a patriot because he doesn't wear a US Flag pin on his lapel like the other candidates. has this political climate in the US gotten so sad and pathetic that you now judge the worthiness of candidates based on whether or not they are wearing a pin? American media is silly. talk about blowing something out of proportion. kinda like when the race first started up, Fox News did this thing on Fred Thompson claiming that because he once played a white supremacist in a movie, he just might actually be one. LMAO.

PS: i still think Obama will win, but maybe that's because i think the American people would like to see a democrat in the white house, and there really aren't any strong democratic candidates other than Hitlary (lol that was a good one puff). or who knows? maybe Mr. 9/11 will get in (Rudy as President? just thinking it makes me laugh )

I know, that shit is ridiculous! I would love to see Obama win as well but I highly doubt he will get the nomination. Unfortunately its gonna be Billary and I think she'll win. I gotta agree with Puff on this matter an say it will be a sad day if Hillary wins, I can't stand Bush but Hillary is worse. As far as Rudy nah he doesn't stand a chance honestly, the Republican Party has pretty much screwed themselves outa the white house for the next 12 years at least!

 

[Sebastian]

I dont know enough about the candidates but if hillary is worse than bush, oh god, please help us...

 

[S O F I]

Puff, have you read much Marx? His idea wasn't for workers to give to the state, like Hilary suggests, but to unite. He actually believed that's what the problem was with capitalism; people being used by the elites! I think you might be confusing Marx' ideas with Lenin's and Stalin's implementation of them.

As for the founding fathers, all they really wanted was to be rid of tyranny. Health care wasn't really on their mind haha. If it wasn't for the anti-federalists, who knows when we'd have gotten a bill of rights.

 

[AmerikazMost]

yes i can. but things hillary says still sound like she reads from the works of karl marx before she goes to bed at night. i don't think president clinton is really a socialist. he is far from the great president like many people like to believe he is or make him out to be but i dont see him as a socialist. hillary on the other hand has proven through writtings and speeches that she is pretty close to being a full blown socialist. that is fine if you agree with that thing, i think you have said in the past you do or at least to some degree. but i don't. i don't think the founding fathers of our country had socialism of any form in mind when creating our country. her actions and words speak pretty clear.

i dont believe in regulations on a market to limit the economy, which is something you can get with a social democracy. i believe in indivdual rights, something that can get limited with a social democracy or socialsim in general. i dont believe in limiting individual choice, which can be limited under a social democracy or socialism.

I believe in social justice in the sense of the right of opportunity. In a world without distortions, liberal--or more so libertarian--policies would probably be ideal. I think that governments have a responsibility to all citizens, including those born into poverty with poor environments and low quality resources. I think that government owes it to its people to ensure the availability of the highest quality of inputs to their own human capital that would enable them to make use or not make use of them for their own benefit and success. This includes massive education reform, massive health and medical care reform, affordable access to higher education, and protections to shocks in their lives.

As far as Hillary is concerned, she is definitely more extreme than me. She's closer to me than most all of the Republicans though. Considering Congress would be adverse to make entirely radical changes, I don't see a grave problem with her, although I don't prefer her.

 

[ill-matic]

john edwards