The Amazing Foresight of our forefathers

[Hankaveli]

The Amazing Foresight of our forefathers

If you know me or any of my past identity’s you know that I am Anti-Establishment, Authority, Capitalism, America, Corporations. Yet I have the utmost respect for Americas founding fathers, I have always had a great deal of interest in them and there vision, I think that if we tried to fulfill there vision of what America would be today it would be a much better place. I think they wanted to make a land where each individual had the same rights, and opportunity’s, with out an oppressive leader.

These where brilliant renaissance men, only there puritan beliefs do I really have a quarrel with, And even there I understand the theology behind it. There foresight was remarkable so much so in fact some things they deemed necessary others viewed other wise.

I will also cite a Abraham Lincoln letter, that displays his amazing perception and foresight as well.
Anyone that believes our current leader can hold a candle to these great men are on dick, dope or dynamite.

So onto what I read.

Jefferson and Madison proposed an 11th Amendment to the Constitution that would "ban monopolies in commerce," making it illegal for corporations to own other corporations, banning them from giving money to politicians or trying to influence elections in any way, restricting corporations to a single business purpose, limiting the lifetime of a corporation to something roughly similar to that of productive humans (20 to 40 years back then), and requiring that the first purpose for which all corporations were created be "to serve the public good."

The amendment didn't pass because many argued it was unnecessary: Virtually all states already had such laws on the books from the founding of this nation until the Age of the Robber Barons.

They knew that a corporation could gain and maintain an unhealthy amount of power over time.

Do you all think this would have been for the betterment of the country? Or vise-versa?

Prior to 1886, corporations were referred to in US law as "artificial persons," similar to the way Star Trek portrays the human-looking robot named Data.
But after the Civil War, things began to change. In the last year of the war, on November 21, 1864, President Abraham Lincoln looked back on the growing power of the war-enriched corporations, and wrote the following thoughtful letter to his friend Colonel William F. Elkins:

"We may congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing its end. It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood. The best blood of the flower of American youth has been freely offered upon our country's altar that the nation might live. It has indeed been a trying hour for the Republic; but I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country.

"As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign
by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety than ever before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless."

Here we see that Lincoln also viewed with trepidation the power of corporations, and the subsequent oppression of man.

I found all this very interesting and wanted to see what the bright minds around here had to say about it.

***I will be makeing a seperate topic about the actul article I read***

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0101-07.htm

 

[Hankaveli]

The Amazing Foresight of our forefathers

If you know me or any of my past identity’s you know that I am Anti-Establishment, Authority, Capitalism, America, Corporations. Yet I have the utmost respect for Americas founding fathers, I have always had a great deal of interest in them and there vision, I think that if we tried to fulfill there vision of what America would be today it would be a much better place. I think they wanted to make a land where each individual had the same rights, and opportunity’s, with out an oppressive leader.

These where brilliant renaissance men, only there puritan beliefs do I really have a quarrel with, And even there I understand the theology behind it. There foresight was remarkable so much so in fact some things they deemed necessary others viewed other wise.

I will also cite a Abraham Lincoln letter, that displays his amazing perception and foresight as well.
Anyone that believes our current leader can hold a candle to these great men are on dick, dope or dynamite.

So onto what I read.

Jefferson and Madison proposed an 11th Amendment to the Constitution that would "ban monopolies in commerce," making it illegal for corporations to own other corporations, banning them from giving money to politicians or trying to influence elections in any way, restricting corporations to a single business purpose, limiting the lifetime of a corporation to something roughly similar to that of productive humans (20 to 40 years back then), and requiring that the first purpose for which all corporations were created be "to serve the public good."

The amendment didn't pass because many argued it was unnecessary: Virtually all states already had such laws on the books from the founding of this nation until the Age of the Robber Barons.

They knew that a corporation could gain and maintain an unhealthy amount of power over time.

Do you all think this would have been for the betterment of the country? Or vise-versa?

Prior to 1886, corporations were referred to in US law as "artificial persons," similar to the way Star Trek portrays the human-looking robot named Data.
But after the Civil War, things began to change. In the last year of the war, on November 21, 1864, President Abraham Lincoln looked back on the growing power of the war-enriched corporations, and wrote the following thoughtful letter to his friend Colonel William F. Elkins:

"We may congratulate ourselves that this cruel war is nearing its end. It has cost a vast amount of treasure and blood. The best blood of the flower of American youth has been freely offered upon our country's altar that the nation might live. It has indeed been a trying hour for the Republic; but I see in the near future a crisis approaching that unnerves me and causes me to tremble for the safety of my country.

"As a result of the war, corporations have been enthroned and an era of corruption in high places will follow, and the money power of the country will endeavor to prolong its reign
by working upon the prejudices of the people until all wealth is aggregated in a few hands and the Republic is destroyed. I feel at this moment more anxiety than ever before, even in the midst of war. God grant that my suspicions may prove groundless."

Here we see that Lincoln also viewed with trepidation the power of corporations, and the subsequent oppression of man.

I found all this very interesting and wanted to see what the bright minds around here had to say about it.

***I will be makeing a seperate topic about the actul article I read***

http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0101-07.htm

 

[Hankaveli]

nobody with me?
nobody aginst me?

 

[Hankaveli]

nobody with me?
nobody aginst me?

 

[Rukas]

Im with you on this one. :thumb:

 

[71Outlaw71]

I agree with you.
The government now is just in favor of the upper class citizens and they don't even look towards the poor unlike our forefathers who wanted society as a whole to prosper.

 

[71Outlaw71]

I agree with you.
The government now is just in favor of the upper class citizens and they don't even look towards the poor unlike our forefathers who wanted society as a whole to prosper.

 

[Hankaveli]

I am so sad, no one else found this interesting.

 

[Hankaveli]

I agree with you.
The government now is just in favor of the upper class citizens and they don't even look towards the poor unlike our forefathers who wanted society as a whole to prosper.

exactly, if the government was really "For the people by the people" I would probably own an American flag that I am not intending to burn lol

 

[71Outlaw71]

exactly, if the government was really "For the people by the people" I would probably own an American flag that I am not intending to burn lol

:thumb: :thumb:

 

[Morris]

I think you are taking the Founding Fathers way out of context by applying a 20th/21st century context to their 18th century statements.

I think they wanted to make a land where each individual had the same rights, and opportunity’s, with out an oppressive leader.

This is clearly bunk. There were some of them who would have abolished slavery if the Union could be kept intact, but every Founding Father from Virginia owned slaves in 1787.

The monopolies that the Founding Fathers referred to are considerably different than the corporations Lincoln referred to. The monopolies of the 18th century could only have been governments by nature. There was basically no such thing as interstate commerce in the beginning. Thus the reason "corporations" were referred to as artificial persons. There was pretty much no such thing as big business.

The corporations Lincoln referred to are more familiar with what we think of today. Huge companies manufactured war goods and made fortunes out of the Civil War, thus expanding their influence and making corporation monopolies possible.

Lincoln's fears were well founded, but they were being addressed 40 years later by Teddy Roosevelt.

I think that if we tried to fulfill there vision of what America would be today it would be a much better place.

The world is way too different to mold America in the vision of Jeffersonian Republicans (which is what you're espousing, a stark contrast from Hamilton Federalists who were also founding fathers). Mass communications and advanced technology sealed the fate of America's agrarian society that Jefferson so loved by the middle of the 19th century. In fact, a number of "progressive" historians have argued that this was the true cause of the Civil War.

 

[Morris]

Anyone that believes our current leader can hold a candle to these great men are on dick, dope or dynamite.

Ironically, I saw a Reader Letter to my paper a few days ago in which he was trying to compare Bush's steadfastness and actions in the Iraq War to Lincoln's in the Civil War (such as suspending habeas corpus). The ignoramuses are out there.

 

[XIAN]

Were the founding fathers Socialist?

The monopolies that the Founding Fathers referred to are considerably different than the corporations Lincoln referred to. The monopolies of the 18th century could only have been governments by nature. There was basically no such thing as interstate commerce in the beginning.

I don't understand what you mean. You don't think they forsaw interstate commerce and corporation? What, exactly, would a monopoly have been to them?

Peace

 

[Morris]

I don't understand what you mean. You don't think they forsaw interstate commerce and corporation?

The Constitution was entirely vague about the idea of interstate commerce, because the "United States" were mostly separate sovereignties until after the experiences of the Civil War helped to form collective common bonds of experience.

If you remember, the 13 colonies in the 18th century had their own currency.