since my Brett Favre thread turned into a debate about it anyway, i figured i'd start a separate thread about this topic. simple question, do you think the preseason should be shortened or eliminated? i personally dont think so, i happen to enjoy preseason games, and there is no other really good way for coaches to see how well their teams can perform than to have them play against other teams. but i know a lot of people are in favor of shortening the preseason, and some want it eliminated altogether. what do you think?
Should the NFL preseason be shortened or eliminated?
- Thread starter Devious
- Start date
but what if a player gets hurt in practice? injuries are going to happen in football, its a part of the game. and i ask anyone who thinks it should be eliminated, how should coaches evaluate their teams then? you cant really evaluate how good a team is gonna be when they are playing against the same guys all the time, which is why preseason is so important. seriously tho, how else can a coach properly evaluate his team? any suggestions?
PS: I noticed that both Pella and Dogmatic, who are against the preseason, are fantasy football guys. now honestly, if it wasn't for you worrying about your fantasy players getting hurt, would you still be against the preseason? try looking at it objectively, outside of the fantasy football world
PS: I noticed that both Pella and Dogmatic, who are against the preseason, are fantasy football guys. now honestly, if it wasn't for you worrying about your fantasy players getting hurt, would you still be against the preseason? try looking at it objectively, outside of the fantasy football world
Devious187 said:
but what if a player gets hurt in practice? injuries are going to happen in football, its a part of the game. and i ask anyone who thinks it should be eliminated, how should coaches evaluate their teams then? you cant really evaluate how good a team is gonna be when they are playing against the same guys all the time, which is why preseason is so important. seriously tho, how else can a coach properly evaluate his team? any suggestions?
PS: I noticed that both Pella and Dogmatic, who are against the preseason, are fantasy football guys. now honestly, if it wasn't for you worrying about your fantasy players getting hurt, would you still be against the preseason? try looking at it objectively, outside of the fantasy football world
PS: I noticed that both Pella and Dogmatic, who are against the preseason, are fantasy football guys. now honestly, if it wasn't for you worrying about your fantasy players getting hurt, would you still be against the preseason? try looking at it objectively, outside of the fantasy football world
To answer your P.S. I am a Football fan, I care about my team (the Redskins), and don't want to see any players who are a big part of that team get hurt in a game that doesn't matter, possbily costing the team, their season. I do play fantasy football, but usually I try and wait after the pre-season to do drafts (the streethop fantasy football, was an exception). The pre-season exists for money purposes, guys don't want to get hurt playing in a game that's a waste of everyone's time. I can't beleive they even broadcast pre-season games, and people watch them. The 6th round of the NFL Draft is more exciting than a pre-season game.
Dogmatic187 said:
Evaultate? Evaulate which 4th or 5th stringer is gonna make the team as a 3rd string back up? Practice is how you evaluate a team, and yes guys can get hurt in practice, it happens, but usually they aren't tackling hard. Look at Chad Greenway a LB for the Vikings, out for the season making a tackle in a pre-season game.
To answer your P.S. I am a Football fan, I care about my team (the Redskins), and don't want to see any players who are a big part of that team get hurt in a game that doesn't matter, possbily costing the team, their season. I do play fantasy football, but usually I try and wait after the pre-season to do drafts (the streethop fantasy football, was an exception). The pre-season exists for money purposes, guys don't want to get hurt playing in a game that's a waste of everyone's time. I can't beleive they even broadcast pre-season games, and people watch them. The 6th round of the NFL Draft is more exciting than a pre-season game.
To answer your P.S. I am a Football fan, I care about my team (the Redskins), and don't want to see any players who are a big part of that team get hurt in a game that doesn't matter, possbily costing the team, their season. I do play fantasy football, but usually I try and wait after the pre-season to do drafts (the streethop fantasy football, was an exception). The pre-season exists for money purposes, guys don't want to get hurt playing in a game that's a waste of everyone's time. I can't beleive they even broadcast pre-season games, and people watch them. The 6th round of the NFL Draft is more exciting than a pre-season game.
Dogmatic187 said:
Practice is how you evaluate a team, and yes guys can get hurt in practice, it happens, but usually they aren't tackling hard.
Professional football is so much more physically demanding than any other sport. You can't just pick up from practice and start playing at a high level. You need to adjust to playing situations and the contact in the pads. Everybody does. Even Clinton Portis and his ego.
Starters aren't required to play any amount of time in these games by the NFL. It's up to the coach's discretion. If the coaches felt that the starters didn't need the preseason PT, they wouldn't play them. If they felt the risk was greater than the reward, they wouldn't play them.
I wouldn't agree with a preseason less than three games. You need at least that much to prepare as a player and to evaluate as a a coach. And to say that in-game evualation doesn't matter is ludicrous. That's how you find the good football players, and not just the good athletes. That's where you see how they make in-game adjustments and react to situations.
Every year someone goes down and all the fans from that team bitch about how their season is ruined. Well, even if these four games were regular season and counted for something, there's still a chance that someone will sustain an injury. Your bones and muscles don't discriminate against the importance of games.
Injuries are a part of the game. Blaming the preseason won't change that.
And Dogmatic, I know you'll disagree and give a long explanation why I'm wrong, but Washington was not going to the Super Bowl with Portis, and they won't without him. They're the third best team in their own division.
Starters aren't required to play any amount of time in these games by the NFL. It's up to the coach's discretion. If the coaches felt that the starters didn't need the preseason PT, they wouldn't play them. If they felt the risk was greater than the reward, they wouldn't play them.
I wouldn't agree with a preseason less than three games. You need at least that much to prepare as a player and to evaluate as a a coach. And to say that in-game evualation doesn't matter is ludicrous. That's how you find the good football players, and not just the good athletes. That's where you see how they make in-game adjustments and react to situations.
Every year someone goes down and all the fans from that team bitch about how their season is ruined. Well, even if these four games were regular season and counted for something, there's still a chance that someone will sustain an injury. Your bones and muscles don't discriminate against the importance of games.
Injuries are a part of the game. Blaming the preseason won't change that.
And Dogmatic, I know you'll disagree and give a long explanation why I'm wrong, but Washington was not going to the Super Bowl with Portis, and they won't without him. They're the third best team in their own division.
AmerikazMost said:
Professional football is so much more physically demanding than any other sport. You can't just pick up from practice and start playing at a high level. You need to adjust to playing situations and the contact in the pads. Everybody does. Even Clinton Portis and his ego.
Starters aren't required to play any amount of time in these games by the NFL. It's up to the coach's discretion. If the coaches felt that the starters didn't need the preseason PT, they wouldn't play them. If they felt the risk was greater than the reward, they wouldn't play them.
I wouldn't agree with a preseason less than three games. You need at least that much to prepare as a player and to evaluate as a a coach. And to say that in-game evualation doesn't matter is ludicrous. That's how you find the good football players, and not just the good athletes. That's where you see how they make in-game adjustments and react to situations.
Every year someone goes down and all the fans from that team bitch about how their season is ruined. Well, even if these four games were regular season and counted for something, there's still a chance that someone will sustain an injury. Your bones and muscles don't discriminate against the importance of games.
Injuries are a part of the game. Blaming the preseason won't change that.
And Dogmatic, I know you'll disagree and give a long explanation why I'm wrong, but Washington was not going to the Super Bowl with Portis, and they won't without him. They're the third best team in their own division.
Starters aren't required to play any amount of time in these games by the NFL. It's up to the coach's discretion. If the coaches felt that the starters didn't need the preseason PT, they wouldn't play them. If they felt the risk was greater than the reward, they wouldn't play them.
I wouldn't agree with a preseason less than three games. You need at least that much to prepare as a player and to evaluate as a a coach. And to say that in-game evualation doesn't matter is ludicrous. That's how you find the good football players, and not just the good athletes. That's where you see how they make in-game adjustments and react to situations.
Every year someone goes down and all the fans from that team bitch about how their season is ruined. Well, even if these four games were regular season and counted for something, there's still a chance that someone will sustain an injury. Your bones and muscles don't discriminate against the importance of games.
Injuries are a part of the game. Blaming the preseason won't change that.
And Dogmatic, I know you'll disagree and give a long explanation why I'm wrong, but Washington was not going to the Super Bowl with Portis, and they won't without him. They're the third best team in their own division.
Devious187 said:
well maybe to you it is that boring, but i like to see where a team is headed. so having the best players on your team to back up your starters isn't a priority in your mind? you have to see how well the players do in real situations. that is the only real way to evaluate how the players are going to play in an actual game. you cant make an evaluation of a team during a practice for one main reason. in practice, the defense knows what play the offense is going to run, and the offense knows what the defense is going to be doing. its easy to make or stop a play that you know is coming, but in a real game situation you're not told in advance what the other team is going to do. plus, do you really think that its a good idea to throw rookies who haven't played a day in the NFL into a game situation without any actual playing experience, and just hope they do well? that doesn't sound like a good idea to me
Devious187 said:
this is exactly my point. in practice the team isn't playing as hard as they could be, they aren't hitting as hard as they would be in a real game situation. how do you practice for when guys really are hitting you hard then? you have to have the experience of playing against other teams in my opinion, especially for the rookies. the NFL is quite a bit different than college ball, and if i was a coach i wouldn't be willing to just throw a rookie with no playing experience out there and just hope he does good. i could agree with it being shortened, but i definitely dont think they should get rid of it altogether
AmerikazMost said:
Professional football is so much more physically demanding than any other sport. You can't just pick up from practice and start playing at a high level. You need to adjust to playing situations and the contact in the pads. Everybody does. Even Clinton Portis and his ego.
Starters aren't required to play any amount of time in these games by the NFL. It's up to the coach's discretion. If the coaches felt that the starters didn't need the preseason PT, they wouldn't play them. If they felt the risk was greater than the reward, they wouldn't play them.
I wouldn't agree with a preseason less than three games. You need at least that much to prepare as a player and to evaluate as a a coach. And to say that in-game evualation doesn't matter is ludicrous. That's how you find the good football players, and not just the good athletes. That's where you see how they make in-game adjustments and react to situations.
Every year someone goes down and all the fans from that team bitch about how their season is ruined. Well, even if these four games were regular season and counted for something, there's still a chance that someone will sustain an injury. Your bones and muscles don't discriminate against the importance of games.
Injuries are a part of the game. Blaming the preseason won't change that.
Starters aren't required to play any amount of time in these games by the NFL. It's up to the coach's discretion. If the coaches felt that the starters didn't need the preseason PT, they wouldn't play them. If they felt the risk was greater than the reward, they wouldn't play them.
I wouldn't agree with a preseason less than three games. You need at least that much to prepare as a player and to evaluate as a a coach. And to say that in-game evualation doesn't matter is ludicrous. That's how you find the good football players, and not just the good athletes. That's where you see how they make in-game adjustments and react to situations.
Every year someone goes down and all the fans from that team bitch about how their season is ruined. Well, even if these four games were regular season and counted for something, there's still a chance that someone will sustain an injury. Your bones and muscles don't discriminate against the importance of games.
Injuries are a part of the game. Blaming the preseason won't change that.
Trust me, if Peyton Manning went down in a pre-season game, career over(and I hope that doesn't happen), you're damn right people would bitch, Indy would bitch, ESPN anyalists would bitch, cause he had no business in that game, and that's what it would take for them to get these joke games out of here. Of course injuries are apart of the game, but if an injury should occur, it should occur in a game that mattered. I don't want to see a guy tear his leg making a tackle is some pre-season joke of a game, I've seen it before, and it pissed me off, cause he should have played in it.
AmerikazMost said:
And Dogmatic, I know you'll disagree and give a long explanation why I'm wrong, but Washington was not going to the Super Bowl with Portis, and they won't without him. They're the third best team in their own division.
The Redskins will win their division, barring serious injuries, and I believe make it to the Super Bowl. They will win 11-12 games, and the Giants will come in 2nd place and get in through the Wild Card, barring injuries and Coughlin not losing that team. The offensive players they needed are now there, they gotta make it work. The most import acquisition was not Randel-El, or Lloyd it was Al Saunders, and wait till you see that. Yes I know Brunell is old, but he managed to get it done last season, when the team met the Seahawks in the 2nd round and almost beat them. Don't forget though, the Skins drafted Jason Campbell in the first round in 2005, so whatever happens he can come in and take over. The Cowboys, are not making the playoffs, I see tension between a certain WR on the team, with the Head Coach and the QB. That'll probably turn into something that will look highly familiar from past stops that reciever made.
Super Bowl XLI
Washington Redskins vs. Indianapolis Colts
(Barring serious injuries, of course)
Dogmatic187 said:
I think a 5 year vet is going to know how to take a hit and adjust in real situations. Now a days when a team drafts a rookie, mostly on offense they don't start them right away, sometimes at all. And when they do, it's usually around week 9 or 10, where some times are out of contention, so they let them get their NFL expierence. The vets know what to do, how to act, and how to adjust and play.
answered that in my first part.
Ok I remember last year a RB on the Redskins was the craze of training camp and impressed everyone on the team, and shined in the pre-season, this shit was on my local news by the way. So they signed him and he was the THIRD-string RB, and now he's not even on the team, I don't know where he is, he could be working in a Foot Locker for all I know, but what a waste of time that was, he didn't contribute at all to the team, on the field, where it mattered. Pre-season means nothing, I don't care about guys who I'll never hear from again, making plays that don't matter, trying to make the roster for one season and then gone. And AM Steve Smith got hurt 2 years ago in the pre-season, broke his leg, out for months, your team when in the tube, becasue he got hurt in a game that didn't matter, a game he had no business in.
Trust me, if Peyton Manning went down in a pre-season game, career over(and I hope that doesn't happen), you're damn right people would bitch, Indy would bitch, ESPN anyalists would bitch, cause he had no business in that game, and that's what it would take for them to get these joke games out of here. Of course injuries are apart of the game, but if an injury should occur, it should occur in a game that mattered. I don't want to see a guy tear his leg making a tackle is some pre-season joke of a game, I've seen it before, and it pissed me off, cause he should have played in it.
Yes you are wrong, and here is the long explanation.
The Redskins will win their division, barring serious injuries, and I believe make it to the Super Bowl. They will win 11-12 games, and the Giants will come in 2nd place and get in through the Wild Card, barring injuries and Coughlin not losing that team. The offensive players they needed are now there, they gotta make it work. The most import acquisition was not Randel-El, or Lloyd it was Al Saunders, and wait till you see that. Yes I know Brunell is old, but he managed to get it done last season, when the team met the Seahawks in the 2nd round and almost beat them. Don't forget though, the Skins drafted Jason Campbell in the first round in 2005, so whatever happens he can come in and take over. The Cowboys, are not making the playoffs, I see tension between a certain WR on the team, with the Head Coach and the QB. That'll probably turn into something that will look highly familiar from past stops that reciever made.
Super Bowl XLI
Washington Redskins vs. Indianapolis Colts
(Barring serious injuries, of course)
answered that in my first part.
Ok I remember last year a RB on the Redskins was the craze of training camp and impressed everyone on the team, and shined in the pre-season, this shit was on my local news by the way. So they signed him and he was the THIRD-string RB, and now he's not even on the team, I don't know where he is, he could be working in a Foot Locker for all I know, but what a waste of time that was, he didn't contribute at all to the team, on the field, where it mattered. Pre-season means nothing, I don't care about guys who I'll never hear from again, making plays that don't matter, trying to make the roster for one season and then gone. And AM Steve Smith got hurt 2 years ago in the pre-season, broke his leg, out for months, your team when in the tube, becasue he got hurt in a game that didn't matter, a game he had no business in.
Trust me, if Peyton Manning went down in a pre-season game, career over(and I hope that doesn't happen), you're damn right people would bitch, Indy would bitch, ESPN anyalists would bitch, cause he had no business in that game, and that's what it would take for them to get these joke games out of here. Of course injuries are apart of the game, but if an injury should occur, it should occur in a game that mattered. I don't want to see a guy tear his leg making a tackle is some pre-season joke of a game, I've seen it before, and it pissed me off, cause he should have played in it.
Yes you are wrong, and here is the long explanation.
The Redskins will win their division, barring serious injuries, and I believe make it to the Super Bowl. They will win 11-12 games, and the Giants will come in 2nd place and get in through the Wild Card, barring injuries and Coughlin not losing that team. The offensive players they needed are now there, they gotta make it work. The most import acquisition was not Randel-El, or Lloyd it was Al Saunders, and wait till you see that. Yes I know Brunell is old, but he managed to get it done last season, when the team met the Seahawks in the 2nd round and almost beat them. Don't forget though, the Skins drafted Jason Campbell in the first round in 2005, so whatever happens he can come in and take over. The Cowboys, are not making the playoffs, I see tension between a certain WR on the team, with the Head Coach and the QB. That'll probably turn into something that will look highly familiar from past stops that reciever made.
Super Bowl XLI
Washington Redskins vs. Indianapolis Colts
(Barring serious injuries, of course)
there is also the factor of gelling as a team. every year, teams bring in new players, who need to gel with other players in order to really be effective. it's hard to do that in just practice. there are so many variables that happen in a game that cant be replicated in practice. and i'm not going to question an NFL coach on whether he thinks his players need playing time. even vets get rusty over the offseason, just because a player is a star and a vet doesn't mean he doesnt need any time to get reacclimated to the game. the problem is you're looking at this from a fan's standpoint. try looking at it from the view of a coach. if they feel players need to get that playing time before the regular season, who are we to tell him otherwise? are you going to go tell Joe Gibbs how to do his job?
Devious187 said:
as its been pointed out, starters aren't forced to play in preseason games. if a coach feels that his players need the playing time, he will play them. so if you want to blame someone for Portis going down, blame Joe Gibbs, not the NFL preseason. and you showed one example of a player who made it onto a roster from preseason and then got cut. i'm sure there are plenty of other examples of that. but for every RB who made the team and got cut, there's a player like James Thrash. in 1997 he was number 12 of 13 recievers in training camp fighting for a job. he really had zero chance of making the team. that is until, in 2 back to back preseason games, he returned kickoffs for touchdowns. now he has a permanent job. without the preseason where would he be now? maybe Portis should have a word with him.
there is also the factor of gelling as a team. every year, teams bring in new players, who need to gel with other players in order to really be effective. it's hard to do that in just practice. there are so many variables that happen in a game that cant be replicated in practice. and i'm not going to question an NFL coach on whether he thinks his players need playing time. even vets get rusty over the offseason, just because a player is a star and a vet doesn't mean he doesnt need any time to get reacclimated to the game. the problem is you're looking at this from a fan's standpoint. try looking at it from the view of a coach. if they feel players need to get that playing time before the regular season, who are we to tell him otherwise? are you going to go tell Joe Gibbs how to do his job?
there is also the factor of gelling as a team. every year, teams bring in new players, who need to gel with other players in order to really be effective. it's hard to do that in just practice. there are so many variables that happen in a game that cant be replicated in practice. and i'm not going to question an NFL coach on whether he thinks his players need playing time. even vets get rusty over the offseason, just because a player is a star and a vet doesn't mean he doesnt need any time to get reacclimated to the game. the problem is you're looking at this from a fan's standpoint. try looking at it from the view of a coach. if they feel players need to get that playing time before the regular season, who are we to tell him otherwise? are you going to go tell Joe Gibbs how to do his job?
Dogmatic187 said:
I blame the NFL, more than I will gibbs. Because they force season ticket holders to buy tickets to these joke games, so when they go, they expect to see the stars. There's nothing that will make me change my mind about the pre-season, players hate it, and people like me hate it. Also, I don't even know where James Thrash is now?
here, i'll use this as an example. why do you think that when you take your driver's test, they having you driving out on the road, in real traffic, as opposed to a closed in course to drive around in? because the instructor needs to see how you handle driving in real situations, and how you deal with unexpected problems that could happen. it's the same principle here. think of the preseason as tests. these players are being scored and graded based on their performance in actual game situations. you simply cant get that out of practice sessions.
Devious187 said:
uh, maybe you should look at your team a little more, since he plays for the Redskins. he's had a 10 season career because of those 2 preseason games, without the preseason he wouldn't have been in the NFL at all. and there are plenty more examples of players like him. and LOL at the idea that people go to preseason games to see the stars. everyone knows that at those games the stars play for a very short time, and some dont play at all. i seriously doubt anyone with at least a basic understanding of the NFL goes to those games to see the stars. usually the ones who do go to these games are the hardcore fans. oh, and by the way not all players hate the preseason, with a few exceptions almost every player i've seen asked about it has responded positively to it. most of the players get excited about getting to finally play against someone who's not on their team. the simple fact is that practice alone cant completely prepare you for the season, nothing short of actual playing time is actually going to prepare you.
here, i'll use this as an example. why do you think that when you take your driver's test, they having you driving out on the road, in real traffic, as opposed to a closed in course to drive around in? because the instructor needs to see how you handle driving in real situations, and how you deal with unexpected problems that could happen. it's the same principle here. think of the preseason as tests. these players are being scored and graded based on their performance in actual game situations. you simply cant get that out of practice sessions.
here, i'll use this as an example. why do you think that when you take your driver's test, they having you driving out on the road, in real traffic, as opposed to a closed in course to drive around in? because the instructor needs to see how you handle driving in real situations, and how you deal with unexpected problems that could happen. it's the same principle here. think of the preseason as tests. these players are being scored and graded based on their performance in actual game situations. you simply cant get that out of practice sessions.
Dogmatic187 said:
Ah, would you look at that. James Thrash is the FIFTH WR on the Redskins, I guess I should have known that, seeing as his role is so important in the offense. People do go to those joke games to actually see a glimpse of the star players, it's sad, but it's true, and there's a chance they'll more than likely see them get hurt than run for a 75 yard TD. I hate the pre-season, they should get rid of it, if they won't, they at least should shorten it, 4 games is too much. Here's an example, when you play season mode on Madden, do you actually play all 4 of the pre-season games? Cause I don't know one soul who does.
Oh and by the way, i do usually play the exhibition games in Madden, at least a couple of them anyway, but you can't compare Madden's Franchise or owner mode to being a coach in real football. if you want to make a real comparison, play NFL Head Coach, skip the preseason games, and see how well your team will do. that game is a lot closer to what it's really like to be a coach than anything you'll find in Madden games
Devious187 said:
well maybe you should have looked at his career stats, he hasn't been a 5th stringer his entire career you know. and what difference does it make whether he's the star of the team, or just a role player who does what he can to help the team? the point is his entire career is based on what he did in those 2 preseason games. but i suppose his 40 yard catch in week 17 last year, the game that clinched a playoff spot for the Redskins, didn't mean much to you, since you didn't even seem to realize he played for the Redskins almost his entire career (save for 2 seasons with the Eagles, both division winning seasons for them). if it wasn't for the preseason, would Ronnie Brown and Cadillac Williams have been starting last year, and helping their teams (especially Miami) greatly improve? i doubt they would have, and that would have been a mistake for both teams. i really don't know why you can't understand the importance of these games to the overall improvement of a team, to me that is more important than any one player getting hurt. i respect your opinion, but to me i just don't see any other way to properly prepare for the season, as a coach or a player, without playing at least a couple of preseason games to see what your team can do in real game situations.
Oh and by the way, i do usually play the exhibition games in Madden, at least a couple of them anyway, but you can't compare Madden's Franchise or owner mode to being a coach in real football. if you want to make a real comparison, play NFL Head Coach, skip the preseason games, and see how well your team will do. that game is a lot closer to what it's really like to be a coach than anything you'll find in Madden games
Oh and by the way, i do usually play the exhibition games in Madden, at least a couple of them anyway, but you can't compare Madden's Franchise or owner mode to being a coach in real football. if you want to make a real comparison, play NFL Head Coach, skip the preseason games, and see how well your team will do. that game is a lot closer to what it's really like to be a coach than anything you'll find in Madden games
well i never said the game was fun lol, it isn't very good at all, but there is a lot of realism in the way you prepare for the season compared to how real NFL coaches do it. if you don't play the preseason games and don't monitor the improvement of your players throughout the preseason their stats will be significantly lower when the season starts. i mean i can see where you're coming from, and in some ways i can almost agree with you. i'm a Falcons fan, and when Vick broke his leg in 03 during the preseason i was pretty disappointed and wrote the season off right there. but i never blamed it on the preseason, i knew he had to play those games to get prepared for the season, and sometimes shit happens. i cringe everytime i see him take a run in a preseason game, like i did in last week's game against the Pats, when he broke out a 25 yard run. (oh and by the way, i'm sure you didn't watch it, with your whole aversion to the preseason and all, but that game was a strong rebuttal against your "preseason games are boring" argument. i thought it was pretty damn exciting, and there were some really big plays from both team's backup players) but at the same time, i believe the reward of the team's overall improvement in preseason games outweighs the risk of players getting injured.
and while those stats you provided are true, about how the preseason games are meaningless, there's also this stat: the last 6 teams to win the Super Bowl all had winning preseason records.
and while those stats you provided are true, about how the preseason games are meaningless, there's also this stat: the last 6 teams to win the Super Bowl all had winning preseason records.
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