Remembering Dresden

#1
Sixty years ago today, Allied bombers attacked Dresden and the thousands of residents and refugees who lived there. Traces of the militarily dubious decision to bomb the city remain visible today.

On the evening of Feb. 13, 1945, nine Mosquito fighter planes and 244 Lancaster bombers from the Royal Air Force's 5th fleet took off from their base in the south of England. Dresden's air raid sirens started to wail at 9:39 p.m. Around 20 minutes later the first target-marking bombs fell on the stadium just outside of the city center. The first air raid lasted about 30 minutes and was so dense that the entire inner city was engulfed by a firestorm.

"There, between exploded trams, I saw the first scorched dead, charred, shrunken, some of them just brushed by the flames but still asphyxiated," a soldier recounted. "Women, children, men -- the horrible death had taken them all."

The Allies didn't just attack Dresden to break the civilians' morale; the idea was also to cut off communication lines to the front.

The second air attack took place between 1 a.m. and 2 a.m. on Feb. 14. More than 500 planes bombed 15 square kilometers (9 square miles) of the city. All told, 650,000 firebombs, air mines and 1,800 demolition bombs were dropped on Dresden in the first two air raids. They totally destroyed the densely inhabited historic city center, mainly hitting residential buildings, churches, offices and museums.

"Our house was hit many times during the second attack," a survivor said. "We all threw ourselves on the floor and my husband said, 'It's burning, it smells like fire.' And he opened the first door and the flames were already blazing. There was nothing to do to save our lives but run through the flames."

The military's Albertstadt, the industrial areas and the airport where barracks were located, remained largely untouched. In the next raid, around noon, the US Air Force targeted the transportation infrastructure.

Though the bombing of Dresden has for years generally been viewed merely as pointless destruction, British historian Frederick Taylor claimed that the city was strategically important after all. Taylor's book "Dresden: February 13, 1945" has caused controversy in the city itself.

"There was a train junction, a garrison, troops came and went as in any other German city near the front," Taylor said. "The English planners wanted to prevent the replenishment of supplies to the eastern front. The attack was not exclusively directed against Dresden; it was also against Chemnitz and Berlin."

But similarly large carpet bomb attacks on Chemnitz, Plauen or Leipzig killed far fewer people, because thousands of people had taken refuge in Dresden at the time of the air raids. Though there's no way knowing exactly how many people died, the official death toll is 35,000, and the city has become a symbol of World War II aerial warfare.

Aside from the suffering and destruction they caused, the air raids saved the last 175 Dresden Jews. On the morning of Feb. 13, orders were dispatched to deport them. During the bombing though, many of the Jews were able to go underground, including the family of Heinz Joachim Aris, today head of Saxony state's Jewish community.

A combo of two photos shows the inner courtyard at the Zwinger art galleries in central Dresden lying in ruins slightly more than a year after the Allied firebombing in a file photo taken March 12, 1946, left, and a similar view of the same wing of the building being under restoration on Thursday, Feb. 10, 2005.

"I was born in Dresden and this city's ruin and the endless suffering of many innocent citizens was dreadful," Aris said. "One must simply see it in the context of cause and effect."

For, Aris added, the Semper Synagogue was burned down on Nov. 9, 1938, and six years later the entire city followed. The Dresden inferno was part and parcel of a horrible war that included the destruction of cities like Rotterdam, Coventry and Leningrad.

Dresden's residents showed an immense willingness to rebuild their devastated home after the war. Their determination is exemplified by the reconstruction of the Frauenkirche, the Church of Our Lady. For nearly 50 years, the church's ruins evoked destruction and death.

But after German reunification in 1990, the Frauenkirche was rebuilt thanks to generous donations -- also from the partnership with the city of Coventry. The new cross atop the church was donated by Britain's "Dresden Trust" and forged by the son of one of the bomber pilots.

Source: dw-world.de
 
#2
One of the unfortunate factors as far as casualty counts were concerned is that Germans living in the Eastern front were heading west to avoid the Soviets, figuring that the other Allies would treat them better in occupation or captivity. Plenty of them knew what the Nazis had done in Russia from 1941-44

As mentioned, Dresden was an important location concerning railroads connecting to Berlin. Many of the people who died in that firebombing weren't originally from Dresden.

And if anyone's wondering why the Brits may have retaliated with the Dresden firebombing, consider the fact that Hitler terrorized them in the air constantly from 1940-1941, not to mention bombing the capitols of every European country the Nazis occupied.
 
#3
The Dresden bombings were not a war crime as so many people insist. No one new the war would be over in two weeks and the Germans there were still putting up a huge fight. A great shame innocent people died but this was war. A World War the Germans started.
 
#4
Morris said:
One of the unfortunate factors as far as casualty counts were concerned is that Germans living in the Eastern front were heading west to avoid the Soviets, figuring that the other Allies would treat them better in occupation or captivity. Plenty of them knew what the Nazis had done in Russia from 1941-44

As mentioned, Dresden was an important location concerning railroads connecting to Berlin. Many of the people who died in that firebombing weren't originally from Dresden.

And if anyone's wondering why the Brits may have retaliated with the Dresden firebombing, consider the fact that Hitler terrorized them in the air constantly from 1940-1941, not to mention bombing the capitols of every European country the Nazis occupied.
No matter what your disagreement with the Nazi war machine even Arthur "Bomber" Harris (head of the RAF) recognized the bombing of Dresden was excessive and not really of any strategic advantage. The Nazi's were already defeated this was a revenge mission which killed over 35,000 innocent civilians. It remains a shameful crime on the part of the western allies.
 
#5
J Chapman said:
The Dresden bombings were not a war crime as so many people insist. No one new the war would be over in two weeks and the Germans there were still putting up a huge fight.
That is absloute rubbish. By summer 1944 the Allies realised the Germans would be defeated by early the next year at the latest. Many thought the war would be over by Christmas 1944. The Battle of the Bulge and bad weather conditions saw to it that it wasn't. Dresden was a crime just as shameful as any other.
 
#6
Zero Cool said:
That is absloute rubbish. By summer 1944 the Allies realised the Germans would be defeated by early the next year at the latest. Many thought the war would be over by Christmas 1944. The Battle of the Bulge and bad weather conditions saw to it that it wasn't. Dresden was a crime just as shameful as any other.
It is not rubbish it's fact. How can you possibly even think of this as a war crime? It was an essential final assault that helped us to victory.
 
#8
J Chapman said:
It is not rubbish it's fact. How can you possibly even think of this as a war crime? It was an essential final assault that helped us to victory.
Do you know anything of the history of World War II? The Allies had recognized by early 1944 that the German war machine was in a perilous state and after D-Day it was only a matter of time before final victory was achieved. In October 1944 armaments minister Albert Speer stated that the German war economy could only hold up for a few months more at best. That it lasted longer is credit Speer's to organizational skill and the German work ethic. "It was an essential final assault that helped us to victory" That is absolute crap. The attack took place at a time when final victory was assured, the Battle of the Bulge was won and the Allies were flooding over the German border. Both Arthur "Bomber" Harris and even Churchill himself recognized that the attack on Dresden achieved very little in the way of strategic objectives. Judging from the fact that there were almost no significant military targets in Dresden and the ones that were there were left virtually untouched tells all. In essence it was a revenge attack nothing else. Over 35,000 civilans were slaughtered in the fireball that resulted from the intense aerial bombardment. To class it as anything other than a crime is disingenuous.
 
#9
Zero Cool said:
Do you know anything of the history of World War II?
Yes and don't insult my intelligence. You claim Churchill "recognized that the attack on Dresden achieved very little in the way of strategic objectives" yet he supported it witch is evidence it could not be a war crime or a revenge attack. A BBC article clearly explains the threat: They were acting on a request from Moscow. The city stood as an important railway and communications centre for Nazi forces resisting the Soviet advance from the east.
 
#10
J Chapman said:
Yes and don't insult my intelligence. You claim Churchill "recognized that the attack on Dresden achieved very little in the way of strategic objectives" yet he supported it witch is evidence it could not be a war crime or a revenge attack. A BBC article clearly explains the threat: They were acting on a request from Moscow. The city stood as an important railway and communications centre for Nazi forces resisting the Soviet advance from the east.
I'm not insulting your intelligence but your disregard for even the most basic facts is mysifying me. Churchill had grave misgivings about the attack on Dresden and only gave the go ahead after RAF bomber command sanctioned it as a "necessary attack" which it was not. Simply beacuse Churchill gave the go-ahead to the bombing raids does not mean it isn't a war crime, unless you think Churchill was some sort of all knowing being. An excellent account of the whole situation and Churchill's reactions to it is Churchill by Roy Jenkins. "The city stood as an important railway and communications centre for Nazi forces resisting the Soviet advance from the east." That is total baloney. The forces stationed there were negligible at best and posed no real threat to either the Soviet or western Allied offesives. Both had overwhelming forces in both men and firepower and as was shown later on Dresden was conquered virtually without a fight. Berlin was the last centre of resistance but that is a periphery to this topic. Dresden was is and will forever remain a shameful act by the Allied war effort.
 
#11
No matter what your disagreement with the Nazi war machine even Arthur "Bomber" Harris (head of the RAF) recognized the bombing of Dresden was excessive and not really of any strategic advantage. The Nazi's were already defeated this was a revenge mission which killed over 35,000 innocent civilians. It remains a shameful crime on the part of the western allies.
It was excessive in that it was firebombed. The Allies had been bombing Germany and Nazi occupied locations after the RAF won the Battle of Britain.

The bombing was done by the RAF, so let's not blame all of the Allies. Dresden's rail connections were important and were certainly fair targets. As for the deaths of those people, it's unfortunate, but World War II was the dirtiest war ever fought.
 
#12
Zero Cool said:
An excellent account of the whole situation and Churchill's reactions to it is Churchill by Roy Jenkins. "


I have read it. I won't now quote myself as I have stated my point: that Dresden was not a war crime. Delving into the complicated logistics of the event are too complex and there is no right or wrong answer. Many innocent people lost there lives but it helped lead us to victory, it was justified if it prevented more fighting and inavitibly more deaths of allied forces. And it will forever remain a shameful act by the Allied war effort? Lets focus on the heroism and skill of our servicemen and military without whom we would not have stood a chance.
 
#13
J Chapman said:
I have read it. I won't now quote myself as I have stated my point: that Dresden was not a war crime. Delving into the complicated logistics of the event are too complex and there is no right or wrong answer. Many innocent people lost there lives but it helped lead us to victory, it was justified if it prevented more fighting and inavitibly more deaths of allied forces. And it will forever remain a shameful act by the Allied war effort? Lets focus on the heroism and skill of our servicemen and military without whom we would not have stood a chance.
It prevented little Allied loss of life as there were few real strategic targets in Dresden and those which were there were left virtually untouched. Destroying military targets is legitimate warfare, firebombing a historical city into ruins is not.
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
#14
It was a terror bombing. And Churchill distanced himself from it.

Churchill to the British Chiefs of Staff , March 28:

"It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land … The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy.

"The Foreign Secretary has spoken to me on this subject, and I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive."
 
#17
Jokerman said:
It was a terror bombing. And Churchill distanced himself from it.

Churchill to the British Chiefs of Staff , March 28:

"It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, though under other pretexts, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land … The destruction of Dresden remains a serious query against the conduct of Allied bombing. I am of the opinion that military objectives must henceforward be more strictly studied in our own interests than that of the enemy.

"The Foreign Secretary has spoken to me on this subject, and I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction, however impressive."

Exactly. That's the precise passage which is contained in the biography of Churchill by Roy Jenkins.

feichen said:
i dont pity the fools who got bombed . they were all guilty to me.

the neo-nazis who protested only showed their own stupidety
Please your ignorant views elsewhere.
 

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