Masculinity v. Femininity

[Amara]

Was just thinking about how gender is a social construct which differentiates between men and women to a far greater extent than our biology.

Take a look at some of the attitudes on the board.... "stop acting like a woman, you have a dick between your legs, dont you?"

We have these preconceived notions of what it means to be male and female that are so deeply ingrained into our minds that we don't even realise that they may not be natural or given, but that we are socialised from birth to believe that this is how it is.

Masculinity and femininity are pitted as opposites with little room for cross over. To be a "male" means to distance oneself from what is "female" and vice versa. For instance, a male that is emotional as opposed to brutish is considered feminine, or...gay. A woman who is tough or hardlined as opposed to soft and gentle.....manly, or....lesbian. We are taught these roles, we construct a notion of "normalness."

But, what does it really mean to be "male" or "female" in the 21st Century?? The roles and expectations are changing. Is gender differentiation still necessary?

What is your opinion?

 

[makadon]

Was just thinking about how gender is a social construct which differentiates between men and women to a far greater extent than our biology.
Take a look at some of the attitudes on the board.... "stop acting like a woman, you have a dick between your legs, dont you?"
We have these preconceived notions of what it means to be male and female that are so deeply ingrained into our minds that we don't even realise that they may not be natural or given, but that we are socialised from birth to believe that this is how it is.
Masculinity and femininity are pitted as opposites with little room for cross over. To be a "male" means to distance oneself from what is "female" and vice versa. For instance, a male that is emotional as opposed to brutish is considered feminine, or...gay. A woman who is tough or hardlined as opposed to soft and gentle.....manly, or....lesbian. We are taught these roles, we construct a notion of "normalness." But, what does it really mean to be "male" or "female" in the 21st Century?? The roles and expectations are changing. Is gender differentiation still necessary?

What is your opinion?

Good post :thumb:

From an Economical standpoint the roles of men and women are less different than from the social standpoint. The biological roles of men and women however will never change naturally. I think the biological composition of men and women clearly play an important part in how we interact with one another and because of that the social roles between men and women in society are what they are.

 

[Amara]

Good post :thumb:

From an Economical standpoint the roles of men and women are less different than from the social standpoint. The biological roles of men and women however will never change naturally. I think the biological composition of men and women clearly play an important part in how we interact with one another and because of that the social roles between men and women in society are what they are.

The corrollation between biology and and social interaction, to me is an ambiguous one. I guess I see biology as seperate - it is a given state of facts, socialisation and gender is distinct from that. Is there really anything in our biological make-up which defines the way "men" and "women" are to interact? In a sexual way, I guess so. But as far as the notions of masculinity and femininity are concerned, I'm not so sure....

Men are biologically stronger, does this mean they are to be void of all emotion and never, for instance never play with dolls? lol.

Women are biologically weaker, does this mean they should be eternally committed to the kitchen, and never speak their minds? (if so, then shit, i'm not much of a woman...lol.)

Putting it like that, doesn't it appear that biology is not the determining factor.....but rather what we construct out of it - certain personal characteristics and acceptable forms of behaviour?

I realise that makes me appear to be a raging feminist, I'm not though, I'm just seeking to understand the social environment and the manner in which it is portrayed.

makadon, can you explain the economical standpoint further?

 

[makadon]

the economical standpoint I made was refering to women in the workforce. A lot has changed within our scociety over the last 50 years and in the 21st century women can hold any job a man can. So as far as economics are concearned theres no difference imo between men and women. As far a scocial roles are concearned between men and women, they date back to prehistory when humans were hunting and gathering. Not much has changed there.

 

[S O F I]

Men are biologically stronger, does this mean they are to be void of all emotion and never, for instance never play with dolls? lol.

Men don't play with dolls, neither do women. Little girls play with dolls, as do little boys. I know I did. However, men don't play with dolls, because they don't like to play with dolls, anymore.

Women are biologically weaker, does this mean they should be eternally committed to the kitchen, and never speak their minds? (if so, then shit, i'm not much of a woman...lol.)

Weak example, if you ask me. In today's world, few intelligent people believe that women should be committed to the kitchen and never speak their minds. The men who do think that, are still living in the old days. I don't see the connection between biologically weaker and never speaking their mind. Women weren't allowed to speak their mind because they had nothing smart to say. I'm kidding, of course.

Putting it like that, doesn't it appear that biology is not the determining factor.....but rather what we construct out of it - certain personal characteristics and acceptable forms of behaviour?

Yes, indeed. I don't see it changing. Unless, maybe, gays and lesbians step up and get accepted in the society.

 

[Bender]

Interesting. We are born into a society which probes ideals that if you have a penis then you should have a certain psychological state of mind to go with it (that being anything opposed to that which represents femininity in a stereotypical concept).

 

[The.Menace]

Of course society has a lot to do with the pictures of the roles, but I do believe that these roles are based on biological facts. There are things, feelings, etc, that are female and the other way around. And while I don't like it that we are kidna stuck in our roles, cause we all should be able to cross the line and I do cause I don't give a fuck about all that, I really think that some of my thoughts and feelings, can't be understood by a female.

 

[shattered dreams]

In my oppinion, masculinity and feminity is what our culture and society considers to be socially acceptable. Such as here in america you dont see guys kissing each other on the cheek,for they would be considered gay, but in other parts of the world the straightest guys will greet each other in that manner. Me being a female, i'm not scared to speak my mind nor am I scared to admit im probably alot stronger because of my height and weight that most guys my age. And yes I get lesbian and all that, because it's ignorance. Its a biased oppinion on a sexuality. I see no difference in saying that a "black person should be in a field picking cotton" and a "white person should be the leading owner of a corporation" and saying a "female should be in the kitchen" and a "male should be bringing home the money". All ignorance and biased oppinions. As far as men being intouch with their feminine side, and guys that call them gay for being like that, is really a blunt example of ignorance, because so far i have not run into a girl, that doesnt like a man showing his emotions. And all these guys claim to be ladies men, but say another male is gay for being emotional, ignorance is bliss. And as far as females being intouch with their masculine side, i have not yet run into a man that doesnt like to see a girl working out, doesnt like to see a girl that can defend herself, and to be honest doesnt like a girl who is into other girls and also into sports. All that is portrayed as society as male dominated things. Im not afraid to admit im intouch with my so called masculine side, you want to call me lesbian or any of that, it just proves ignorance. Same with all you males who call another male gay because he's intouch with his feminine side. Grow up.

 

[CalcuoCuchicheo]

Men are biologically stronger, does this mean they are to be void of all emotion and never, for instance never play with dolls? lol.

No, but as the stronger sex, we have a primal role of protection which I feel remains relevant today. When a male takes on the role of protector, he doesn't have the luxury of indulging in certain emotions - or else, him & his dies.

Now in a 'civilised' society, this role shouldn't be relevant & the detatchment from emotion shouldn't be either. But they are. The 'protector' is still played today & is, on the whole, expected if not welcomed & appreciated.


As for the topic in general, I will have to take a bit of time to think about it before I make a post about the whole topic.

 

[MX Red]

Ann Okley made research into this topic based on the work of a functionalist writer Murdock, Murdock claimed that the nuclear family was universal and apparent in all societies and that women have a natural role as do men. Okley through studing Murdock's work found this not to be true, that family structure varies greatly from culture to culture even if mother and fathers are generally present - and further more found that in some cultures women took on the masculin roles, such as hunting and gathering fire wood.

The constructions of gender roles are in my opinion socially constructed, but unlike feminists do not believe these roles to be oppressive (the nuclear family as a economic unit is oppressive, but not gender roles), simply due to a mans physical nature he will be more capable of preforming some tasks better than a female, and vise-versa. The value we place on these roles are socially constructed and masculinity does seem to be valued higher in the world, due to the males dominant position. But these values are socially constructed and perception can be changed, the roles in themselves are not oppressive but rather the weight we as society place on each of them are oppressive.

Also i think feminism went down the wrong route when it wanted equality with males in practise i.e. we can do what ever u can. Feminism should have argued for equal status more strongly, there argument that one follows the other is simply wrong because natural influences do effect reality.

You cannot make a complete split of nature and nurtue, you would be ignoring some important differences in men and women - for one, women give birth, and do appear to have a different relationship with a child to his father (not better or worse, just different), but socialisation plays a huge part in masculin and feminin labels, especially primary socialisation, McRobbie, a symbolic-interactionalist held an experiment were by he placed a baby in a room with different adults at different times and dressed the same baby in blue for some and pink for others (The same baby was used in every experiment) - when the baby was dressed in blue the adults would encourage the baby to play with trucks and brics and such things, while when the baby was in pink it was encouraged to play with dolls and also when the baby was in pink was not encouraged to do anything aggressive.

My opinion is that there are natural differences that suite males to do some tasks better than women and visa-versa, but we should not place greater social value on one over the other.
peace
MX!

 

[Pacaveli-T]

these roles are far from necessary and it really gets me when a guy says I won't cry cause its feminine or weak based on how men don't cry....I don't know how people still view these principles as being fair or normal or even accepted...To me it's just being narrowminded to keep up this whole male vs female trait garbage...

At this point seeing it's the 21st century it's way too hard to say what it means to be male and female when there are so many other changes coming about in the society and its norms...It would be unethical for me to assume that I know the answer when people are always evolving and constantly changing opinions.

 

[Sebastian]

My opinion is that there are natural differences that suite males to do some tasks better than women and visa-versa, but we should not place greater social value on one over the other.
peace
MX!

basically thats it!

these roles are far from necessary and it really gets me when a guy says I won't cry cause its feminine or weak based on how men don't cry....I don't know how people still view these principles as being fair or normal or even accepted...To me it's just being narrowminded to keep up this whole male vs female trait garbage...

crying is nothing feminine and its of course ok for a man to cry.

however, male or femal, crying a lot is is a weakness

 

[Pacaveli-T]

basically thats it!




crying is nothing feminine and its of course ok for a man to cry.

however, male or femal, crying a lot is is a weakness

in general i never said its not right but ppl believe and i never said a lot though....i can't expect miracles here.

 

[AmerikazMost]

Men can be emotional, but that can't be controlled by emotions. They need to be the protectors, and this means being able to discriminate between logic and emotion. They can be emotional when appropriate IMO.

 

[Ghetto_Ghost]

^ i agree. but never do we get emotional around our male friends. its just like the aminal kingdom man i dont know why some people think there's more shit to this. but what AmerikazMost said i agree with therefore i am in a state of agreeance

 

[Amara]

^You havent addressed the question though, why is it so? I know the states of being, to state a fact is one thing, to look for causes is another. That is where I believe social construction comes into it. That is the point of this thread.

 

[Amara]

The constructions of gender roles are in my opinion socially constructed, but unlike feminists do not believe these roles to be oppressive (the nuclear family as a economic unit is oppressive, but not gender roles), simply due to a mans physical nature he will be more capable of preforming some tasks better than a female, and vise-versa. The value we place on these roles are socially constructed and masculinity does seem to be valued higher in the world, due to the males dominant position. But these values are socially constructed and perception can be changed, the roles in themselves are not oppressive but rather the weight we as society place on each of them are oppressive.

Also i think feminism went down the wrong route when it wanted equality with males in practise i.e. we can do what ever u can. Feminism should have argued for equal status more strongly, there argument that one follows the other is simply wrong because natural influences do effect reality.

There are many different types of feminism however, not all believe in necessary oppression and equality in all regards. Reading the works of J.Ann Tickner - she is one that studies the gender in the context of international relations, she does not speculate whether the effects of masculine dominance is good or bad, but rather just seeks to acknowledge that it exists. Most of the other literature I have read as well seems to suggest not that women should "be equal" but that they should have equal worth and equal access, rather than disregarded in relation to theoretical analyses, rather than being ignored. Anything other than that is just a denial of reality. I guess it is like you said, equal value is the key.

 

[Amara]

At this point seeing it's the 21st century it's way too hard to say what it means to be male and female when there are so many other changes coming about in the society and its norms...It would be unethical for me to assume that I know the answer when people are always evolving and constantly changing opinions.

Sorry for the triple post. But yeah, that is essentially what I was trying to draw out - the changing nature of the roles over time is happening - at a steady rate at least in modern liberal societies, most notably in Scandanavian countries...so what role will gender have is increasingly losing its distinguishability....masculinity and femininity, the black and white polar opposites will perhaps give way to a substantial gray area, if it has not already done so.

 

[makadon]

i’m not interested in biased pieces of writing if you want to know the scientifical answer to your question click here
These links are different studies based on the same research

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6849058/

http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/package.jsp?name=fte/womenmaps/womenmaps

If you Think about how differently our brains work you can connect two and two together.
Over thousands of years our brains have evolved in different directions from each other.

Not only have human sexes evolved in different directions, but Animals have too. have you ever wondered why two birds of the same species not only look compleatly diffent from one another but they sing differnt songs? Nature is responsible for men and womens differences. however some people in scociety would like to change that.

As far a scocial roles are concearned between men and women, they date back to prehistory when humans were hunting and gathering. Not much has changed there.

 

[Jokerman]

^So map-reading should be left to the men, damn it. Let the women be the ones to ask for directions, with their better language skills.