God through Reason#1

#1
This is Sheikh Wahiduddin from God Arises. I will continue with more excerpts.

God through Reason#1

Today, the understanding of reality is through observation and experiment, but since religious beliefs concern the supernatural sphere of existence, they are thus considered unverifiable. Arguments in their favor are based entirely on assumption and inference: this being so, they are declared to have no acceptable scientific basis. Arguments against religion are there because the claims of religion are unfounded as they are neither based on any valid argument, nor scientifically demonstrable; religion belongs strictly to the domain of faith, and reality is considered verifiable.

But this case against religion has itself no basis in fact. It should not be forgotten that the modern method of reasoning does not insist that only those things which can come under direct observation have a real existence. A scientific supposition which is based on direct observation can also be as much a fact as the result of scientific experiment.

For instance, the electron is unobservable. It is so tiny that neither can a microscope show it, nor a weighing scale weigh it. Yet, in the world of science, the existence of electron is considered a reality. This is because although an electron itself is not visible, some of its effects repeatedly come within our experience, and no explanation can be found for them other than the existence of a system like that of the electron. The electron is a supposition, but since the basis of this supposition is indirect observation, science must concede that it exists.

Science does not, and can not claim that reality is limited only to what enters directly into our experience through the senses. We can see with our own eyes that water is liquid, but the fact that each molecule of water consists of two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen is something which escapes us, because these atoms are not visible. The way to arrive at this conclusion is by inference. For instance, we apprehend water by direct perception of its appearance. But it is only by INFERENCE, and not by direct observation that I can grasp the fact that each molecule of water is composed of two atoms of hydrogen and one of oxygen.

From the above discussion, it becomes quite clear that it is not proper to regard religion, on the one hand, as being based on faith in the unseen, and treat science, on the other hand, as being based on observation. It must be admitted that science just like religion, is ultimately a matter of having faith in the unseen.

An atom provides an irrefutable example of scientists’ faith in the unseen. An atom has never physically been observed. Yet it is the greatest established truth accepted by modern science. A scholar has rightly defined scientific theories as ‘mental pictures that explain known laws.’ In the field of science, the notion of so-called ‘observed’ facts are not so in the strictest sense of the word: they are simply interpretations of certain observations.
(Our observations of nature are used to derive conclusions.) The greatest evidence of God before us is His creation. (We INFER from the superb organization and the very existence of the universe that there has to be a creator just as a scientist infers from certain observations that there are atoms.)
 

Rahim

VIP Member
Staff member
#2
Very good argument. I agree. I think science will always be there to try and (in a way) "compete" with religion...you know what i mean?
 

Glockmatic

Well-Known Member
#3
"Faith" has 2 different meanings. One meaning confidence in something that is supported by evidence, and one meaning to believe in something that has no logical proof.

We know atoms exist because there have been countless experiments revealing them. What happened over Hiroshima and Nagasaki in WW2 is also proof that atoms exist. Now all we need are some experiements to reveal god
 

Preach

Well-Known Member
#4
i have to say i want to give you some points for the wit on that one. as i started reading i was thinking this was gonna be a really interesting read, which i thought it was. i didn't notice it while reading, but when i was done it became clear to me that throughout the whole essay, you're just building up a rationalization for believing in god.

for one, i have to say that what you said about science being mental pictures for known laws was very interesting. this is very true. however, you also said yourself that scientists infer that certain things are the way they are because that's the only possible explanation for observations done in an experiment. a religious person, by your word, infers that there must be a creator much in the same way. there's one principal difference - the existance of a creator is not the only possible explanation for the universe. you're not doing an experiment after which you conclude with the only possible explanation. you're saying that the universe had to be created by a god, because why? because we think, because we feel? because we are born? because of the bible? because of the complexity of existance itself? a human's point of view is limited by the boundaries of a human life, which averagely doesn't last much longer than 70 years. i had the cool idea of pulling up all the limitations of a human being and compare them to forces known in the universe. i'm not gonna do that, but an example of what i had in mind: a human being can sprint at about 100 km/h. the light can travel at 300,000 km/h. a human being would spend a lifetime walking across the face of the earth, but the size of the earth compared to the size of the universe, is like the size of a pea compared to the size of the earth. multiplied by a gazillion. a human being, in my honest opinion, is not supposed to understand all the forces in the universe. that's not to say a creator had to orchestrate everything.

basically, you're just another believer. what you got going for you, though, is that you're an open-minded and clever one. you're using semantics to make your case in a decieving way that appeals to suckers. the arguments are invalid but the choice of words gives the appearance of cohesion.

edit: okay i thought you wrote this yourself, now someone said you didn't, so this is a response, i guess, to whoever wrote that. it can be like roleplaying.
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
#6
Hisham said:
The greatest evidence of God before us is His creation. (We INFER from the superb organization and the very existence of the universe that there has to be a creator just as a scientist infers from certain observations that there are atoms.)
 
#7
Atomic theory is falsifiable. God isn't. We can use atomic theory to make predictions and then observe whether those predictions were correct. We can't do that with God.

You can't compare the two.
 

Jurhum

Well-Known Member
#8
this religion vs. science topic has been beat down to a point where it's ridiculous to discuss it again.

The problem is religion and science aren't here to disapprove each other, rather to compliment each other. but it seems some people will use one to justify why the other is incorrect.

science isn't against religion and religion isn't against science.
 
#9
Jurhum said:
this religion vs. science topic has been beat down to a point where it's ridiculous to discuss it again.

The problem is religion and science aren't here to disapprove each other, rather to compliment each other. but it seems some people will use one to justify why the other is incorrect.

science isn't against religion and religion isn't against science.
Agree
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#10
The problem this article tries to hide under it's eloquent writing is a very simple one, it is the assumption of believers that scientific observation is based solely on the physical observation with our own eyes. Not so, of course. A scienctist observes in many different ways.
 

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