European referendum

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#1
It's coming up, the vote. What are you Euro's going to vote and why?

For the non-euro's: Europe is deciding on a European treaty, a sort of constitution, combining all the existing treaties and expanding it a bit. i'm too smoked out to give you a short run-down in detail about the situation and the treaty (it gets complicated quickly when i'd try to be complete). but a quick google search will yield results.

i will vote pro.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#3
Yes, it's a "referendum". Which is the reason my father won't vote out of principle, because we don't actually VOTE on this, we only speak our mind. The governments can still do what they want (more or less). Pops says: the people have to DECIDE, and not ADVISE. He has a point, but i'll vote anyway because i feel that when you can vote, you should.

Why are you in favour? Personally i see some downsides in it as well, but i'm convinced that a united europe is the way to go, and the sooner we start the better imo.
 
#4
Duke said:
Why are you in favour? Personally i see some downsides in it as well, but i'm convinced that a united europe is the way to go, and the sooner we start the better imo.
For that very reason. Europe is already a recognized entity with it's own parliament and laws so it makes sense to enshrine it in a constitution.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#5
Zero Cool said:
For that very reason. Europe is already a recognized entity with it's own parliament and laws so it makes sense to enshrine it in a constitution.
Very true. Personally, i also think a lot further. I wouldn't be adverse to a single European state to be honest. Not tomorrow of course, but say, in a decade or two.

We have parliament.
We have for the largest part of Europe free markets.
Many countries have totally open borders.
We have a European monetary unit.

We're already well on the way. I feel it's going to be time to think about the next big step.
 
#6
I'll be voting against it, because I don't want us giving all of our powers away to brussels and the euro is not strong enough therefore it would be bad for our bussiness
 
#7
radkin said:
I'll be voting against it, because I don't want us giving all of our powers away to brussels and the euro is not strong enough therefore it would be bad for our bussiness
The Euro is at it's strongest point since it's inception therefore it's not bad for business at all. You'll be giving away very little powers to Brussels anyway perhaps none at all. All it's doing is enshrining what everyone already accepts, that Europe is one viable entity.
 
#9
Zero Cool said:
The Euro is at it's strongest point since it's inception therefore it's not bad for business at all. You'll be giving away very little powers to Brussels anyway perhaps none at all. All it's doing is enshrining what everyone already accepts, that Europe is one viable entity.
I don't agree that we'll only be giving away a little power, a lot of news articles I have read say otherwise.

anyway isn't the pound far stronger than the euro at the moment?
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#10
radkin said:
I'll be voting against it, because I don't want us giving all of our powers away to brussels and the euro is not strong enough therefore it would be bad for our bussiness
The new treaty only consolidates the agreements already made. It's true that the new Euro constitution will take precedence over a country's consti. , but there's not much to be disagreed upon.

I don't know why many people think they are going to "give away many powers to the suits in Brussels", when in practice there's not much changing...
 
#11
radkin said:
I don't agree that we'll only be giving away a little power, a lot of news articles I have read say otherwise.

anyway isn't the pound far stronger than the euro at the moment?
I could tell from your use of the term "Brussels" that you'd been reading the tabloids.


I like the idea of a united Europe.
 
#13
Here is some reasons to vote against:

More power to the EU
We think decisions are best made at a local level, close to the people they affect. But the EU Constitution would mean giving even more power to remote politicians. In the modern world more decisions should be taken locally, not in another country hundreds of miles away.

More power to politicians we can’t control
The EU Constitution would set up a European President and a European Foreign Minister. In Britain the Government pretends that the EU Constitution is just “a tidying up exercise”. But politicians in Europe are more honest about what’s really going on. German Foreign Minister Joshcka Fischer says that he is in favour of “creating a single European state bound by one European Constitution.” Belgian Prime Minister Guy Verhofstadt says the EU Constitution would give the EU “all the instruments of a federal state.” Germany’s Europe Minister has called the Constitution “the birth certificate of a United States of Europe.”

Britain weaker in Europe
The EU Constitution would make it harder for Britain to block damaging proposals from the European Commission. In 63 new areas our right of veto – in other words our right to say no – would be abolished. Britain’s ability to stop legislation would be cut by 30%, making it easier for the EU to pass new laws even if they are bad for Britain.

Less control over crime and civil liberties
The EU Constitution would give the EU new powers over our courts and criminal laws. The EU could determine what prison sentences some convicted criminals should get, and EU judges could for the first time initiate investigations of British citizens. EU judges would have powers over what evidence could be used against criminals. The EU would get new powers over our police, over what civil rights we have and over our immigration policy. These are decisions that should be made in Britain, not by the European Union.

Losing control over our economy, schools and hospitals
Leading French politician Nicolas Sarkozy has said that the EU Constitution would be the “embryo” of a “European Economic Government”, giving the European Union new powers to “coordinate” our economy and our employment policy. The Constitution would make the EU Charter of Rights legally binding, giving EU judges new powers to regulate our economy. It would give the EU new powers over social security benefits, and how services like schools and hospitals are run.

Less control over our armed forces and foreign policy
The EU Constitution would create an EU Foreign Minister and give the EU its own diplomatic service, which Jose Zapatero, the Spanish Prime Minister, has said will eventually lead to the abolition of member states’ embassies. The EU Foreign Minister would represent Britain at the UN on all issues where the EU had adopted a single line. The European Court would have new powers to rule over our armed forces.

More cost, more waste
Everyone knows that Europe needs to change. But the Constitution does nothing to solve Europe’s real problems. EU politicians have talked about reform for years – but nothing ever seems to change.

Locking in wasteful farming policies
The EU's Common Agricultural Policy (CAP) is a subsidy for farmers in Europe. This costs every household in Britain £1,000 a year in higher tax and higher food prices - and it costs the poorest people in Britain the most. The CAP also traps farmers in the world's poorest countries in poverty, by making it impossible for them to trade fairly with Europe.

Fraud and corruption
The EU is riddled with fraud and corruption. Its own accountants have not signed off its books for ten years. But the EU Constitution will do nothing to solve this. Britain pays £12 billion into into the EU every year - we must stop this money being wasted.

High unemployment in Europe
The euro is not working for the countries that have adopted it. Over 19 million people are unemployed across the EU. The Constitution would make things worse by taking away even more control over member states’ economies.

Damaging our economy
According to official figures, European regulations have cost the UK economy £24 billion since 1998. The EU Constitution will mean even more unnecessary regulations. Opinion polls show 60% of businesses are against signing up, because they worry it would be bad for jobs and industry. But the EU’s new powers don’t just cost business – they would hurt public services and charities too, tying them up in costly bureaucracy.

Bankrupt pensions
Some of the euro countries are facing a crisis because they have not saved enough money to pay out pensions in the future. These countries face huge national debts. The Constitution doesn't deal with this long term problem.

A bad deal for Britain
In October 2000 Tony Blair said he was opposed to “a single, legally binding document called a Constitution”. His Government said, "For the record, we are not proposing a constitution of Europe". However, under pressure from France and Germany, they gave in.

Tony Blair said he aimed to “take powers back” from the EU. But the Constitution would not bring back a single power to Britain. Tony Blair promised the Constitution would make things simpler – but in fact it would make the EU more complicated and bureaucratic than ever. Now Blair is claiming that the Constitution is a “triumph for Britain” which would give Britain “everything we wanted”.

But Tony Blair didn’t get a good deal for Britain. During the negotiations the Government made 275 demands, but got only 27 of them. The Government said they were against giving up our veto over EU powers to determine prison sentences, but then later signed up anyway. The Government said that an EU foreign minister was "unacceptable", but then accepted it. The Government said that the EU Charter of Rights would be “no more binding than the Beano”. But the Constitution would make the Charter legally binding and give EU judges more power over our economy and public services.

No wonder the French government describes the Constitution as, “the crowning of the French vision for Europe, against the Anglo-Saxon vision.”


Source: http://www.nocampaign.com/
 

Taliq

On Probation: Please report any break in the guide
#14
Maybe in the future it would be a good idea. At the moment, from a British perspective, i think its a bad move. Maybe its the things ive been reading and the media directed to me, but there seems more negatives than positives. Wasnt it only yesterday it was declared that Scroeder (i think) wants to push for an early German election, a year early. The region which is usually the most stable (cant remember the name...it contains Dortmund, dusseldorf, Koln) has an unemployment level of 1million...which is massive compared to previous levels. Think overall unemployment is at around 5 million...thats crazy. Granted germany's bigger/more populated than Britain, but thats around 5/7 the population of London unemployed...crazy. So Europe hasnt helped much there.

Also hear there have been ramblings in France about this. And funnily enough the French and Germans put the most effort in the initail stages of this initiative years ago when they had the some of the strongest economies in Europe. Now look at them. Britains economy is the 4th biggest/best in Europe behind Ireland, Switzerland and Luxembourg. And i havent really seen much evidence in the European factor helping the top four countires but iv seen a bit on the European factor degrading the economies of France and Germany.

Another point on the "European State" is that its not really "fair" that it wouldn't (at the moment) be including many eastern European countries.
 
#15
I think i won´t vote because
The government said that if people will say no, they don´t have to follow this..
I think the whole refferendum is bullshit cuz most people don´t even know what a european constitution is. If they wanna have a real advice (what the refferdum is about), ya better get advice from real specialists.
Also the lack of information is the problem, the government are just busy with convincing people to say yes..
But if i vote, i will vote pro
 
#16
This is a good site that lets you read the constitution (in English or French) and to add and read annotations. You can also read brief summaries of each of the points in the Constitution.
 
#17
LyricalDisguise said:
I think i won´t vote because
The government said that if people will say no, they don´t have to follow this..
I think the whole refferendum is bullshit cuz most people don´t even know what a european constitution is. If they wanna have a real advice (what the refferdum is about), ya better get advice from real specialists.
Also the lack of information is the problem, the government are just busy with convincing people to say yes..
But if i vote, i will vote pro
they said that on purpose
cuz if 30% comes... they HAVE TO take over the discision... because that's how they put it in the special law they accepted to make this referendum possible (cuz by dutch law referrendums dont excist)

More power to the EU
We think decisions are best made at a local level, close to the people they affect. But the EU Constitution would mean giving even more power......for Europe, against the Anglo-Saxon vision.”
for Brittain, u can just fill in France or Netherlands instead.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#18
Baukem said:
i vote against
ill tell u later why... but every ghetto thug should vote against
wtf? that has to be the most stupid comment ive seen on here in a good while.
 

AmerikazMost

Well-Known Member
#19
At the moment, it doesn't sound like a good idea. Although as someone mention the Euro is at the strongest it's been since its inception, that doens't mean it's strong enough.

I think it's too early to be thinking of something like this. They need to be ready and then unite, not unite and worry about being prepared afterwards.
 

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