consciousness.

#1
all our perceptions, sensations, dreams, thoughts and feelings—are forms appearing in consciousness. It doesn't always seem that way. When I see a tree it seems as if I am seeing the tree directly. But science tells us something completely different is happening. Light entering the eye triggers chemical reactions in the retina, these produce electro-chemical impulses which travel along nerve fibers to the brain. The brain analyses the data it receives, and then creates its own picture of what is out there. I then have the experience of seeing a tree. But what I am actually experiencing is not the tree itself, only the image that appears in the mind. This is true of everything I experience. Everything we know, perceive, and imagine, every color, sound, sensation, every thought and every feeling, is a form appearing in the mind.

which then begs the question as to what actually exists?...does everything just exist within my mind...or do i just exist within your mind?

thoughts/opinions?
 
#3
no, sight was just the example....the same can be said for ALL 5 senses..

touch: electrical signal interpreted by your brain

sound: the interpretation of vibrating molocules in the air

taste/smell: the interprepretation of how things taste/smell is probably the most relative concept considering everybody likes to eat different things..and what some people will consider to "smell delicous" others will say smells/tastes completely disgusting.
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
#4
There is an external world, one that has an independent reality, one that is the same whether we know it or not, and no matter how we know it. It's true that everything we perceive about the world "out there" is really something our minds have constructed; however, our mind's copy or version, no matter how inaccurate and incomplete, had an original model that it's based on.

That there exists a reality that's independent of our minds should be common sense to almost everyone.

The conflict between philosophy and common sense is almost entirely modern. It's first phase began with Descartes and its second phase began with Kant. I spit on their foolishness.
 
#5
Jokerman said:
That there exists a reality that's independent of our minds should be common sense to almost everyone. Everyone except the most eminent figures in modern philosophy and many prominent professors of philosophy, psychology, linguistics, and cultural anthropology in our universities, which is where you probably discussed this.
Ooh, obviously the post-modernists are in your crosshairs. While, I agree with you, and that basically any analysis of 'reality' is sure to be mixed up in the linguistic game, basing this whole thing on 'common sense' is surely more absurd than anything Descartes ever proposed. If the knowledge of the 'common' is your a priori judgement then you are basically proposing a truth which is contingent on some democratic principle.

There is a truth out there, I believe this. Call it a leap of faith because I don't truly know, and I never will, but it is my decision, not some common sense that I subscribe to.


(Jokerman, I hope that I'm just misunderstanding your conception of 'common sense'.)
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
#6
HitEmUp21 said:
(Jokerman, I hope that I'm just misunderstanding your conception of 'common sense'.)
Yes, you are, and I knew what I wrote was open to that conception, but I'm not sure how to go about explaining it so that it's readily understood.

But I'll make an attempt later.
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
#7
Okay, let's see. By "common" sense I mean the kind of sense that happens within you. It's the experience we all have, individually, without its being directed by questions or problems like those that direct investigative efforts in scientific research or philosophical inquiry. It comes to us simply by our being awake and conscious and by having our senses acted upon. We make no effort to get it. We are not seeking to answer questions by means of it. We employ no methods to refine it. We use no instruments of observation to obtain it. In short, it's the experience that ordinary persons have and, for the most part share.

Those universally shared aspects of daily human experience that do not result from any special efforts to investigate or observe should be regarded as the core of common experience that unites all human beings on earth as participants in one and the same experienced world.

As the special experience that results from scientific investigations, observations, and measurements gives rise to scientific knowledge of reality when reflectively analyzed and interpreted by hypotheses and theories, so the common core of ordinary experience gives rise to our commonsense knowledge of reality, which may be elaborated on and refined by philosophical analysis and reflection.

Although human experience is mind-dependent as reality is not, it is nevertheless the same for all human beings to a considerable extent.

This common sense, or philosophical realism, if you prefer, does not overlook the fact that that experience and that knowledge of reality is distinctively human. It's not the experience enjoyed by nonhuman animals, who have minds but not intellects and whose perceptual experience of reality differs in its sensitive range and acuity from ours. None of it is enlightened by conceptual thought.

That raises a question. Does the way really exisiting things appear to us more nearly approximate their structure and character than the way these same things appear to other animals? I tend to answer this question affirmatively.

My reason for doing so...well, I'll save that for my next post if anyone is still with me so far and is interested.
 
#8
i hear what your saying Jokerman...however, im with hitemup21 when i say i dont like the term 'common-sense' used in relation to what your trying to say...

i mean consider how primitive our brains are in terms of understanding our universe....i.e there are around 11 dimensions...and we can only see 3 of them....then consider how easily our brains can be tricks...i.e optical illusions etc.... its not that hard to see that everything we perceive as being 'common sense' may in fact be the complete opposite of how our universe, adn everything in it truly appears.
 
#9
Jokerman said:
Okay, let's see. By "common" sense I mean the kind of sense that happens within you. It's the experience we all have, individually, without its being directed by questions or problems like those that direct investigative efforts in scientific research or philosophical inquiry. It comes to us simply by our being awake and conscious and by having our senses acted upon. We make no effort to get it. We are not seeking to answer questions by means of it. We employ no methods to refine it. We use no instruments of observation to obtain it. In short, it's the experience that ordinary persons have and, for the most part share.

Although human experience is mind-dependent as reality is not, it is nevertheless the same for all human beings to a considerable extent.

This common sense, or philosophical realism, if you prefer, does not overlook the fact that that experience and that knowledge of reality is distinctively human. It's not the experience enjoyed by nonhuman animals, who have minds but not intellects and whose perceptual experience of reality differs in its sensitive range and acuity from ours. None of it is enlightened by conceptual thought.
The problem I have with this is simply taking things at face-value. Does this consciousness exist outside of social conditioning? Or, alternatively, is the influence of any conditioning not strong enough to distort the human-commonality we share? What I am implying is that I can't fathom any stream-of-consciousness type thing whereby we are simply sensing the outside world without any perception or conceptualising. You can't communicate the sublime (to use a Kantian term) without distorting it by forcing it into classifications and concepts. If we can't separate mere sensation from perception and conceptualising, then how can we really know that we have this common sense? (Although I'm sure a Taoist or a Zen monk would disagree with me.)

That raises a question. Does the way really exisiting things appear to us more nearly approximate their structure and character than the way these same things appear to other animals? I tend to answer this question affirmatively.

My reason for doing so...well, I'll save that for my next post if anyone is still with me so far and is interested.
Because we possess the higher-order skills to weigh up how things truly appear? I am interested in how you arrived at this.
 

S. Fourteen

Well-Known Member
#10
kman_69 said:
all our perceptions, sensations, dreams, thoughts and feelings—are forms appearing in consciousness. It doesn't always seem that way. When I see a tree it seems as if I am seeing the tree directly. But science tells us something completely different is happening. Light entering the eye triggers chemical reactions in the retina, these produce electro-chemical impulses which travel along nerve fibers to the brain. The brain analyses the data it receives, and then creates its own picture of what is out there. I then have the experience of seeing a tree. But what I am actually experiencing is not the tree itself, only the image that appears in the mind. This is true of everything I experience. Everything we know, perceive, and imagine, every color, sound, sensation, every thought and every feeling, is a form appearing in the mind.

which then begs the question as to what actually exists?...does everything just exist within my mind...or do i just exist within your mind?

thoughts/opinions?
Morpheus, is that you?
 

Jokerman

Well-Known Member
#12
Okay, the reason why I believe the way things appear to us more nearly approximate their structure and character than the way these same things appear to other animals is that our perceptual experience of reality is intellectually enlightened by commonsense categories and empirical concepts that are derived from the common core of our ordinary reality; theirs is not. In addition, other animals are less likely to be able to correct all the tricks the senses play that result in deceptions rather than perceptions.

Human beings have learned how the senses produce illusions and hallucinations. They know how to correct or avoid them. They are, therefore, seldom misled into mistaking an illusory appearance for a veridical (truthful) perception of reality, and if some persons are misled, others can always be found to correct them.

HitEmUp21 said:
Does this consciousness exist outside of social conditioning? Or, alternatively, is the influence of any conditioning not strong enough to distort the human-commonality we share?
Yes, it exists outside of social conditioning, just as reality exists outside of what we think about it. And this is because we share the same mind. I believe what you’re asking is do human beings, living in the same world, have divergent mentalities because of the diverse languages they use and because of the differing cultural conditions under which they have been reared? Or is there one human mind, having specific properties common to all members of the human species?

My answer is the latter. There is one and the same human mind in all members of the species, not a primitive and a civilized mind, not a Western and an oriental mind, not an ancient and a modern mind. The many different languages that human beings use result in superficial differences in the way they think, none of which is an insuperable barrier to communication. The many diverse cultures in which human beings are reared result in superficial differences in the habits they form and the customs practiced, none of which abolishes the common humanity that is most significantly represented by the human mind they all possess.

If something is perceptible, any human being should be able to perceive it. If something is intelligible, any human being should be able to understand it. If something is thinkable, any human being should be able to think it. If something is knowable, any human being should be able to know it.

Of course, there are many exceptions to this statement of an ideal in principle. But they result from intellectual deficiencies or other mental impairments, such as sensory deprivations or loss of sensory acuity, never from language defects. Given adequate sensory equipment and adequate intellectual power, there are no unsurmountable obstacles to communication between one person and another, because what one of them can teach, the other can learn.

The ideal in principle thus remains: all conventional languages are completely translatable; all human experience (all that is public, not private) and all human thought are completely communicable. These two facts—universal translatability and universal communicability—attest to the universality of the human mind and intellect regardless of the diversity of human languages.

I focused on differences of language above, but I can take any cultural difference and get the same results. Not only is reality one and the same for all human beings. Not only does our experience of that reality have a common core in which we all share. But by virtue of having the same human nature with the same species-specific properties, each of us has a mind and intellect that is essentially the same in all other human beings.

The experienced reality of the world in which we live is not a construction of our minds, even though our experience of it is mind-dependent as its reality is not. In the course of human history many different worldviews--models or versions of the world--have been developed, varying from culture to culture, from time to time, and from one stage of religious, cultural, scientific or philosophical speculation to another.

These are all products of the intellectual imagination. The plurality of worlds thus pictured or imagined should never be confused with the world that we perceive. If some are better and others worse, the only measure of that is the degree to which they can be harmonized and made coherent with our commonsense knowledge of reality, which, being based on the common core of ordinary human experience, is the same for all of us.

The innate nature of the human mind is the same wherever there are human beings—under all cultural conditions at all times and places. But that one and same human mind is nurtured differently under different cultural conditions. What the cultural anthropologists are describing when they report diverse patterns of human behavior in different subsets of the human population are all nurtural differences. These nurtural differences exist as acquired behavioral habits or dispositions. Underlying diverse habits are the same natural powers or potentialities.

Nurtural differences should never be interpreted either as natural differences or as a basis for denying the existence of a common nature. All the forms of racism and sexism with which we are acquainted have been prejudices bred by the error of attributing to nature what are only the products of nurture.

By correcting this error, Rousseau corrected one of Aristotle’s most serious mistakes, the mistake of thinking that some men are by nature slaves. Those who are nurtured as slaves will appear to have slavish natures. Similarly, females nurtured as inferior human beings will appear to have natures inferior to males. It’s this substitution of nurture for nature that causes the error made by cultural anthropologists and philosophical existentialists in the twentieth century.

So, like languages, all culturally conditioned differences in human behavior are superficial nurtural differences as compared with the underlying sameness of specific human nature.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#14
Jokerman said:
The experienced reality of the world in which we live is not a construction of our minds, even though our experience of it is mind-dependent as its reality is not.
Says it all.
 
#17
Jokerman said:
The experienced reality of the world in which we live is not a construction of our minds, even though our experience of it is mind-dependent as its reality is not.

says enough in terms of how we percieve things....or speficially how YOU percieve your world....but theres no physical way for you to prove that everything that you see/hear/smell/taste, and touch isn't just a construct in your mind (or a construct for your mind)...thats the whole point, its all electrical signals creating a picture in your mind....sure, you can assume that its all real because you really want it to be, but thats doesnt make it so... and theres no way to prove otherwise...
 
#18
saltynuts said:
Morpheus, is that you?
hehe exactly...that movie may not be far off....especially in terms of what jokerman said earlier.....that yeah, obvisouly there has to be an original universe that a constructed one would have to at least resemble...but the real universe in that movie certainly wasn't the same as the constructed 'matrix'
 
#19
Jokerman said:
There is one and the same human mind in all members of the species, not a primitive and a civilized mind, not a Western and an oriental mind, not an ancient and a modern mind. The many different languages that human beings use result in superficial differences in the way they think, none of which is an insuperable barrier to communication. The many diverse cultures in which human beings are reared result in superficial differences in the habits they form and the customs practiced, none of which abolishes the common humanity that is most significantly represented by the human mind they all possess.
Ahh, I just spent 20 minutes writing a long-winded response and then got to the end only to realise I agree with you.

But I do think that such a thing is unverifiable. Because of the split between sensation and perception, we cannot possibly conceptualize and communicate our sensations without converting them into some 'human' concepts, thus distorting our original sensations to fit them.
 

Duke

Well-Known Member
Staff member
#20
^ Good point mate, and that's the point. It is unverifiable. And thats where kman_69's point comes in. We can't prove it physically.

Then again, kman can't prove the opposite either. So until then, I'll run with Jokey's theory, because doubting everything gets tiresome after a while.
 

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